LiveCode 6.0rc3 on Ubuntu: Experiences

[append[x]]

Since I am developing mostly for iOS, my LiveCode development computer is a Mac. However, my main computer for all daily tasks is a Ubuntu-Thinkpad. With the 6.0-pre-releases coming up in the last weeks, I decided to evaluate the Linux machine again as a possible LiveCode development platform.

The story short: there is no way to use the 6.0 LiveCode IDE on Ubuntu satisfactorily at this time - at all ! Which is a pity, especially as standalone Linux applications compiled from the Mac run very nicely on Ubuntu.

The somewhat longer story:

- The Unity integration has improved, compared to 5.5.4, as the LiveCode windows are now collected in one icon in the Unity-launcher. Nevertheless it is a huge hassle once you switched to another application, because all the windows have to be brought back one by one (as there are the menubar window, the tool window, the stack window, the script window, the dictionary window, the property inspector, the application browser, the message window). This might not be a LiveCode problem, I have the same effect with all other Apps (this is the only thing that drives me crazy on Unity), but LiveCode is the application with the most windows and the most often need to switch between them. Man, would I love a single window environment for LiveCode. The menu bar in a dedicated window is an incredible pain - even when it is currently visible it takes two clicks to activate a menu (first to activate the menu, then to select from it). This window behaviour is a showstopper already. It made me furious, I cannot imagine how anyone can stand this for longer than 15 minutes. If this is my fault, because I do not get Unity or Ubuntu right, please let me know!!!!

- Text selection in all text fields is flawed. Any text selection in a field (either in the IDE or in the stack) is ignored: whatever section of the text is selected, once you start typing the cursor jumps before or after the selection and inserts text there. It is therefore not possible to overwrite text. If the text of a field is to be deleted, it is necessary to delete each character with the Del or BS keys individually (or do it programmatically).

- Paste does not work. Simply, no paste option is available, neither for objects, nor for text. In my testing application I had to drag every object from the toolbar and customize it individually. I finally found some remedy by using the "clone" button in the Application browser. For the text I found no remedy: I was not able to paste text from the clipboard to a text field.

I actually stopped evaluation at this point, because those usability issues are so elementary, that I got the feeling, that the Linux IDE of LC is not really supposed to be working at this time and might be somewhere in the queue for a later time down the development roadmap. I even wonder if it makes sense at this time, to report bugs?

So, this is not to complain, just to state, that the IDE cannot be used in a professional way on Ubuntu at this time, although, standalones compiled for Linux perform fine, as far as I investigated.

[sturgis]

Since you're using an RC (release candidate) it means you must be in the dev program with access to the developers list server. Since there is an NDA (I think) regarding pre-release stuff you should discuss it on the dev list rather than here.

Having said that.. Yes report bugs! Either to support@runrev.com or ask for permission so that you can submit bugs directly to the database. Since its an RC and there are so many new things being worked on its not surprising that there are issues. I've also noticed that performance and various issues can show up or disappear depending on which libraries are installed. You might go to a prompt and run ldd on the livecode executable and see if there are any missing dependencies that might help solve the issue. (ldd lists shared library dependencies for an executable)

I have successfully used older versions of LC without the issues you've seen. I've also had trouble. 2 versions of mint i've tried didn't work very well. Version 11 did. All 3 machines though were set up by other people initially so again who knows what each might have had installed and I did not do much digging to look for an answer. It would be very helpful to know where the issues arise so that perhaps a better install method (deb/rpm/whatever packaging hopefully) so that installs can be done that will auto resolve dependencies/issues. I think there are a few people already working on setting up package install options. I can't wait to see Linux become a more solid part of the lc family.

[FourthWorld]

The story short: there is no way to use the 6.0 LiveCode IDE on Ubuntu satisfactorily at this time - at all ! Which is a pity, especially as standalone Linux applications compiled from the Mac run very nicely on Ubuntu.

As a long-time LiveCode developer who's also very active in my local Ubuntu community, I've been working with the LiveCode team to address Ubuntu-specific issues. We've seen some good progress, as you noted, but there are indeed areas that remain to be addressed, and hopefully we can pin down the cause of yours to the point that we can either have the RunRev team address them, or perhaps address some of them ourselves when the open source code base is released.

Your last comment there, that your standalone apps built with LiveCode are running fine, bodes well for improving the IDE experience to be on par.

Before we look at each of the items you noted, knowing the answers to these questions would be helpful:

- What version of Ubuntu are you running?
- Can you briefly outline your hardware (lshw output not needed, just CPU model and amount of RAM)?
- Do you see these same issues with the current shipping version of LiveCode?

There are quite a few issues you've uncovered - very helpful feedback, thanks for taking the time to list them. To help keep them straight, perhaps we can address them by number as we move this diagnostics discussion forward - to summarize:

1. Windows not staying in the appropriate desktop (not LiveCode-specific)
2. Menubar doesn't exhibit click-through (takes two clicks to bring the menu down, the first just activating the window)
3. Text selection ignore when you begin typing
4. Paste doesn't work; menu item isn't available for either objects or text

Does this list adequately cover the items you've seen thus far with v6?

And which, if any, are not problems in v5.x?

Some of these may be related to known issues. Right now I'm working on a Mac to finish a client project, but later in the weekend when I'm back on my Ubuntu laptop I'll review these and look through the bug database to see if I can find additional info that can help.

FWIW, I think #2 above may be related to a more general issue of the LC IDE having simply way too much menu updating going on. Even on my Mac it takes a surprisingly long time for menus to drop down.

[richmond62]

"no way to use the 6.0 LiveCode IDE on Ubuntu satisfactorily at this time"

that is 100% tripe, and I don't know where you got that idea from.

I have Livecode 6.0.1 OSS deployed across 10 machines running: Edubuntu 7.something, Ubuntu 5.10, Ubuntu 12.04, Ubuntu 12.10, Xubuntu 12.10 and UbuntuStudio 13.04
with not a backward glance.

As I also have Livecode 6 OSS deployed on Windows XP and Windows 7, and Mac OS 10.4 PPC, and Mac OS 10.6 I am aware that there are no observable differences (except for the old Quicktime chestnut) between those installs and the Ubuntu ones.

[append[x]]

@richmond62: as I was advised not to discuss release candidates on this forum I will refer to your post on the LiveCode Developer List.

[richmond62]

Anything I posted on the Livecode Developer list must have been donkey's ages ago.

As I stated above: I have LC 6.0.1 OSS running on a "collection of mixed nuts" with no obvious problems
at all.

However, this is 6.0.1 and NOT 6.0 rc3, and maybe there's the rub.

Howeevr, I have had no problem with 6.0 gm either.

Richmond.

[append[x]]

I repeated all tests again yesterday with 6.0.1 with pretty exactly the same results as before (with a complete deinstallation of LC first).

The text marking problem was solved yesterday in the devlist (mark some text and press CMD-C before the mouse button is released), and it seems that this problem is Unity-specific.

And about the paste-problem, I am really curious: When you create a new stack, create one button in it, are you able to copy and paste the button to get a copy of it? I get no paste-option for objects at all.

My main computer is running Ubuntu and I keep a Mac only for being able to run LiveCode, I would so much prefer to work on Linux. So if your computers are fine with LC maybe we can figure out the differences? Would be interesting which desktop you use, as Unity might be the cause for some of the trouble.

[richmond62]

XFCE 4.10 works like a charm.

[mwieder]

I jumped ship from Ubuntu when they pushed that awful Gnome3 on us. I'm running linux mint 14, which is Ubuntu-based, but I'm using the Cinnamon desktop and have had no LiveCode problems with that or with xfce on top of Fedora Core. So the current Ubuntu problems may be Unity-related. I can't say, and I'm happy enough with Cinnamon that I'm not going back. You might try installing Cinnamon instead and switching from Unity to see if it helps.

[richmond62]

I cannot stand anything that is not a WIMP GUI; all the other ones may be jolly clever and all that, but I know what I like; and XFCE certainly does "it" for
me, I know that ohers are keen on MATE and Cinnamon, personally not my cup of tea. XFCE has had a good long time to mature and now resembles GNOME 2 to all intents and purposes.

I have had Livecode running perfectly well with MATE, Cinnamon, GNOME fallback, E17, pantheon, KDE 3 and XFCE. I really couldn't tell you about UNITY, GNOME 3 or KDE 4+ as I wouldn't touch any of them with a ten-foot pole.

[alcibiades]

Richmond is right - the first thing to rule out is the Ubuntu desktop. Get and install openbox and pick that as the desktop at login. If it works with openbox its not a problem with LC. I suggest openbox because its totally standards compliant with no tweaks.

LC 6 Community Edition works fine with Fluxbox. That would be another alternative.

Peter

[append[x]]

Just a short status message:

richmond62 and alcibiades suggested to test LiveCode on alternative desktops (instead of Ubuntu's default Unity environment).

I do not think that this a general solution to the problems per se - Ubuntu seems to be the most favorite Linux distro (as the survey in this forum confirmed) and I guess it should work in the default environment. I have followed the Ubuntu-desktop-discussion for a couple of months now and this discussion is really religious, even worse and more fundamentalistic than the old Mac vs. Window debate.

Nevertheless I thought it would be best to dive into this topic and started to try some of the desktops that richmond and alcibiades suggested, namely Gnome fallback, Cinnamon and openbox. I ran into all sorts of trouble, some of these desktops working better than others, some very ugly, some nice. Nevertheless I found this to be a very interesting field to research (aside the LiveCode focus) and I am still in the process, spending a lot of time in the evaluation of xmonad, which I really started to like.

I am far from any structured results, but I can positively assure, that LiveCode behaves differently on different desktops and that most of the erratic behaviour does not occur outside the Unity environment!

I will try to make up my mind for one of the alternatives desktops and then re-evaluate LiveCode in that environment...

[mwieder]

Ubuntu seems to be the most favorite Linux distro

<sigh> yes. Ubuntu's six-month release cycle has its advantages and disadvantages.
On one hand I appreciate all the bleeding-edge experimentation that goes on, but on the other hand there are top-down decisions made that force some changes if you want to upgrade. The changing default desktop environment is certainly one of those. The loss of gksu in the latest release is another.

It would be nice, on a number of levels, if LiveCode ran out of the box on the most popular linux distro. But given that Ubuntu (and other linux disros as well - not singling out Ubuntu in particular here) is a moving target, that's a bit of a problem.

The gksu thing for example: in order to install for all users the installer needs elevated privileges. Typically this is done by default by invoking gksu. This wasn't a problem for Ubuntu, but Fedora Core dropped gksu support several versions ago. And now Ubuntu has done the same, for added security. It's true that if you're upgrading gksu isn't removed, and it can be installed in a new system. It's also true that you can install as root and fiddle with things until you have it working. But doing this as a mass-market one-click installation gets harder as the linux audience expands to more folks who may not be as linux-savvy to start with.