Linux & LiveCode Apps

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doc
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Linux & LiveCode Apps

Post by doc » Sat May 12, 2012 12:26 am

...hope you folks don't mind a little bit of cross-posting to bring this conversation into play here at the forum.

On the mail-list, Mr. Richard Gaskin wrote:
So here's where I'm going with all of this:

LiveCode developers make a lot of great apps that add value to the platforms you deploy to, and Linux is a platform hungry for apps.

A great many people at Canonical are focused on making it as easy as they can to get your apps into their Ubuntu Software Center, and as a contributor to that effort I'd like to help you do that.
Platform hungry for apps?
Having been around Linux for some 12-14 years, I've never noticed a time where "hungry for apps" has been quite that apparent. Many Linux people speak of the need for more applications and there are a LOT of people that can/could supply them, but in my experience and observations, the nuts and bolts of it really goes like this:

Linux is "hungry for FOSS apps", "built with FOSS tools".
...and almost everything else is shunned or at best, ignored.

Closed sourced? : Strike one
Built with proprietary tools? (Even if open sourced) : Strike Two
Commercial product? : Strike Three

After admiring Meta-Card then Rev for several years, I finally bought a license when DreamCard For Linux was released. Within two weeks of that purchase, I had my first fully functional working application built solely on Linux and couldn't have been more pleased. The excitement was great! ...and then I woke up to the realities of the Linux world as a developer.

My question is: Can anyone name even one single commercial application (successful product) for Linux that was built with something ->other<- than FOSS development tools?

-Doc-

Edit: Corrections to fat fingered spelling errors. :roll:

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Re: Linux & LiveCode Apps

Post by FourthWorld » Sat May 12, 2012 2:30 am

doc wrote:Platform hungry for apps?
Having been around Linux for some 12-14 years, I've never noticed a time where "hungry for apps" has been quite that apparent.
Hang out in the Ubuntu forums. Nearly every week I see requests for apps, and the relative size of the app ecosystem is widely regarded as a key factor which has historically held the platform back.

doc wrote:Closed sourced? : Strike one
Built with proprietary tools? (Even if open sourced) : Strike Two
Commercial product? : Strike Three
While it's true that some corners of the Linux world are somewhat religious about open source, that's not true of a growing majority as the platform becomes more gentrified:
Canonical marketing manager Gerry Carr told me that "in a recent survey we did of the Ubuntu User base where we got 32,000 plus responses, Adobe Photoshop as a potential application for Ubuntu got a 3.52 rating out of 5 being the second most popular potential app after Skype."
http://blogs.computerworld.com/15991/ub ... e_to_linux

doc wrote:My question is: Can anyone name even one single commercial application (successful product) for Linux that was built with something ->other<- than FOSS development tools?
I'm not sure I understand the question, since C, C++, GCC, and Klang are all open source and are the tools used for most apps on the Mac and elsewhere.

The tools used seem less relevant to me than what one makes with them, so until I can understand what you meant there I'll focus my answer on apps.


Many of the factors needed for success on any platform are only now just coming together with Ubuntu. In spite of Linux' long history, until Ubuntu it never had the range of OEMs shipping machines with Linux pre-installed, one of the two most critical factors needed for any platform to see significant growth.

The other factor is the ecosystem, or more specifically, apps. No matter how good an OS is, ultimately it's just an app launcher; apps define the scope of what one can do with an OS.

The situation with Ubuntu is rather like the early days of Mac, when Apple had Guy Kawasaki and others knocking on doors around the Valley to get devs to port their apps to that then-new platform. It wasn't easy, and only those who've been using Macs for more than a couple decades will remember just how poorly it did in those early years, until the Laserwriter and Postscript finally gave folks a reason to plop down $2500 for a 512x342 monochrome screen.

This year we're beginning to see some heavy players finally giving Linux some attention. For example, Steam is coming to Linux, and EA has begun putting some of its apps into the Ubuntu Software Center.

Since the attention from OEMs and software vendors has only begun to come into play at such scale, it'll be some time before I'll be able to easily draw up a list of commercially successful apps on the platform. But since I'm working with the Ubuntu team to gather such info, as I come across it I'll post it here.

In the meantime, we can look at a couple of interesting statistics that bode well:

Linux Gamers Command 90% Of Initial Unigine OilRush Sales
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... &px=OTE2Ng

Humble Bundle game sales show higher average Linux spending than Windows or Mac:
Total payments: $822,331.97
Purchases #: 92,550
Average purchase: $8.89
Average Windows: $8.30
Average Mac: $10.09
Average Linux: $11.42
http://www.humblebundle.com/

While I don't have sales totals for the Ubuntu Software Center, this list of the top 10 paid apps may be of interest:
http://developer.ubuntu.com/2012/04/top ... arch-2012/

I recognize this isn't much information, and admittedly is rather game-centric, but at the moment those are the stats I could dig up in a quick search.

Later this year I'll be porting a couple of my own apps to Linux so I'll have stats on those as well.

In the meantime I can tell you this: I sell WebMerge for all three major OSes, and while the number of units sold for Linux is small, because I use LiveCode it was a dirt-simple port, delivering a solid return on that investment.

That's really the main point of my post, and my offer to help LiveCoders get their apps on Linux. I don't know anyone who expects Linux to take over the world, any more than we can expect even OS X to overtake Windows' 90% market share. But since we're using a multi-platform tool, the cost to port to other platforms is uncommonly low, so the chance to put your wares in front of millions of new eyeballs at such a low cost has a good chance of providing a reasonably healthy ROI.
Richard Gaskin
LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems
LiveCode Group on Facebook
LiveCode Group on LinkedIn

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Re: Linux & LiveCode Apps

Post by FourthWorld » Sat May 12, 2012 2:36 am

For some background on this thread, here's a link to the post I made on the use-livecode list:

Linux deployment: never a better time
http://lists.runrev.com/pipermail/use-l ... 71916.html
Richard Gaskin
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doc
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Re: Linux & LiveCode Apps

Post by doc » Sat May 12, 2012 5:11 am

Richard,
Let me say right up front (which I failed to do previously) is that I still share your hope of Linux being much more than it is, with LiveCode apps sharing a good position in the mix. I'm kinda-sorta playing the devils advocate here... while adding fuel to the conversational fire.
While it's true that some corners of the Linux world are somewhat religious about open source, that's not true of a growing majority as the platform becomes more gentrified:
I'm sorry, but that may be the one and only place that we will disagree.
If you revisit some of your own Linux-centric posts over the last year or so... you'll find the use of FOSS this and FOSS that, throughout most all of it. The reason for that is "Free & Open Sourced" is at the very heart of the GNU-Linux project. Gentrified or not, those folks simply do not see the world of software, development and/or business through the same set of eyes as a traditional Window/Mac developer. I personally don't see that changing any time soon.
Canonical marketing manager Gerry Carr told me that "in a recent survey we did of the Ubuntu User base where we got 32,000 plus responses, Adobe Photoshop as a potential application for Ubuntu got a 3.52 rating out of 5 being the second most popular potential app after Skype."
Surveys are great, but in the real world, if there really is such demand, then where are the popular commercial apps that you find on Windows or Mac? Where are the players in the marketplace? Why don't we see Dreamweaver, Turbo-Tax, Rosetta Stone, Skype, etc. on the Linux platform?

It's my contention that those are some really smart people, with large, efficient, research & marketing capabilities. If the people willing to exchange a sufficient amount of $$ / €€ were there with credit cards in hand, those companies would be there already.
I'm not sure I understand the question, since C, C++, GCC, and Klang are all open source and are the tools used for most apps on the Mac and elsewhere.

The tools used seem less relevant to me than what one makes with them, so until I can understand what you meant there I'll focus my answer on apps.
My point:
Due to the very nature of the beast, it is impossible for LiveCode and/or LiveCode apps to fit into the FOSS model. Assuming you or an army of developers were to build a free product or project in an open source friendly manner, the code itself still requires the purchase of a commercial, proprietary, closed source development system in order to alter, maintain or improve the project. At best, it doesn't fit in and it is actually in opposition to the entire paradiam and economy model that Linux is based on.

This year we're beginning to see some heavy players finally giving Linux some attention. For example, Steam is coming to Linux, and EA has begun putting some of its apps into the Ubuntu Software Center.

Since the attention from OEMs and software vendors has only begun to come into play at such scale, it'll be some time before I'll be able to easily draw up a list of commercially successful apps on the platform. But since I'm working with the Ubuntu team to gather such info, as I come across it I'll post it here.

In the meantime, we can look at a couple of interesting statistics that bode well:

Linux Gamers Command 90% Of Initial Unigine OilRush Sales
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... &px=OTE2Ng

Humble Bundle game sales show higher average Linux spending than Windows or Mac:
Total payments: $822,331.97
Purchases #: 92,550
Average purchase: $8.89
Average Windows: $8.30
Average Mac: $10.09
Average Linux: $11.42
http://www.humblebundle.com/

While I don't have sales totals for the Ubuntu Software Center, this list of the top 10 paid apps may be of interest:
http://developer.ubuntu.com/2012/04/top ... arch-2012/

I recognize this isn't much information, and admittedly is rather game-centric, but at the moment those are the stats I could dig up in a quick search.
As you stated concerning the game-centricity of your stats...
Of the top 20 apps (paid or free) that I found using your link, only 6 were non-games and even two of those six are utilities to provide the ability to play Windows based games in Linux. To me at least, without the commercially viable, mainstream software products or the companies who produce and market them, it kinda looks to me like mainstream Linux is now being targeted primarily as a free gaming platform.
That's really the main point of my post, and my offer to help LiveCoders get their apps on Linux. I don't know anyone who expects Linux to take over the world, any more than we can expect even OS X to overtake Windows' 90% market share. But since we're using a multi-platform tool, the cost to port to other platforms is uncommonly low, so the chance to put your wares in front of millions of new eyeballs at such a low cost has a good chance of providing a reasonably healthy ROI.
...and I sincerely hope you are successful, sir!

I still see a lot of smoke and mirrors with Linux, as a developer and as a user. The potential has always been great, but best I can tell, it still doesn't pay the bills for very many.

-Doc-

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Re: Linux & LiveCode Apps

Post by FourthWorld » Sat May 12, 2012 9:50 pm

doc wrote:If you revisit some of your own Linux-centric posts over the last year or so... you'll find the use of FOSS this and FOSS that, throughout most all of it. The reason for that is "Free & Open Sourced" is at the very heart of the GNU-Linux project. Gentrified or not, those folks simply do not see the world of software, development and/or business through the same set of eyes as a traditional Window/Mac developer. I personally don't see that changing any time soon.
I agree that the FOSS community is especially enamored of FOSS. My point was simply that as the Linux audience grows it also becomes more diverse.

Today some of the most desired apps for the platform are not merely proprietary and commercial, but also sometimes fairly expensive (Photoshop being at the top of that list).

There will always be some who will use only FOSS apps, but that percentage will get ever smaller as the audience continues to grow.

Today's Ubuntu audience is quite willing to pay for apps that deliver value, and the numbers from game developers I provided earlier support that.

doc wrote:Surveys are great, but in the real world, if there really is such demand, then where are the popular commercial apps that you find on Windows or Mac? Where are the players in the marketplace? Why don't we see Dreamweaver, Turbo-Tax, Rosetta Stone, Skype, etc. on the Linux platform?
Skype is available for Linux. As for the others, companies like those were much like the majority who didn't jump on the Mac platform for many years after it launched.

With Linux, the platform ecosystem has historically been hampered by the biggest disadvantage that Windows and Mac never had: people don't buy OSes, they buy computers.

In that sense, Linux isn't a whole-product solution, since it needs a computer to run it and most computers ship with some other OS on them. It never occurs to the average person that they could replace the OS that came with their computer with something they downloaded off the Internet. It's rather amazing that Linux has come as far as it has with that limitation.

That's beginning to change.

Every quarter for the last couple years we've seen announcement of new models from Dell, Asus, Acer, and others with Ubuntu preinstalled.

More recently, such OEM agreements with Chinese manufacturers have led to this, a headline once completely unthinkable:

Canonical: Ubuntu To Soon Ship On 5% Of PCs
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=n ... px=MTA5ODM


True, if you're in the US you can't walk into WalMark and buy a computer running Ubuntu.

Yet.

While these OEM agreements continue to grow outside the US, here at home we find two factors that suggest an opportunity for OEMs to consider a line of Ubuntu machines:

1. OEM margins are falling, to the point that the two biggest, Dell and HP, have in the last year pondered whether they can remain in the game at all. Historically they've delivered a pixel-for-pixel user experience identical to all of their competitors, Microsoft Windows, which has forced them to differentiate only by lowering prices. The only way out of that hole is some other form of differentiation. Ubuntu is one option for that.

2. People are increasingly comfortable with multiple OSes, thanks to the exploding mobile market. Today's computer user jumps between their Windows PC, their Android phone, and their iPad with an ease unknown in previous years.

It's too early to tell if PC manufacturers will have the insight to finally begin differentiating, or if their shareholders will continue to mystifyingly allow them to bleed cash every quarter with ever-lower margins. But it would be kinda dumb of them not to try, and their explorations of Ubuntu bundling outside the US may provide some inspiration.


OEMs and app devs are the two sides of a chickens-and-eggs scenario, in which devs will jump on board when they see a larger audience, the audience can only grow when they can buy Linux computers, and computer manufacturers will only make those machines when they see the audience grow.

Historically this has been an intractable conundrum, but I think we're seeing just enough OEMs coming on board now, with app devs like Valve and EA on that front, that we may see a bit of a tipping point not long from now.

For myself and a growing number of my clients, the cost to port LiveCode apps to Linux is so low that we can contribute to the app side of the equation and still make money today, before that tipping point is reached.


doc wrote:Due to the very nature of the beast, it is impossible for LiveCode and/or LiveCode apps to fit into the FOSS model.
Not necessarily. I've discussed this with David Bovill and other FOSS advocates in the LiveCode comminuty, and the consensus seems to boil down to this:

With LiveCode what we have is effectively a virtual machine, and we write our code using scripts that call its APIs to do its magic. In that sense it's no different from writing FOSS wares which rely on APIs in proprietary OSes like Mac and Windows.

In purely rational terms (recognizing that not everything in life is rational <g>), if using LiveCode is somehow verboten, then all FOSS projects that run on Mac and Windows are equally invalid.

doc wrote:As you stated concerning the game-centricity of your stats...
Of the top 20 apps (paid or free) that I found using your link, only 6 were non-games and even two of those six are utilities to provide the ability to play Windows based games in Linux.
Skewed indeed, but not in a bad way: the number one reason people cite for dual-booting Linux is to keep a Windows install around for games. Games are a big deal (note how much energy Apple's devoted to evangelizing its platform for gamers and game devs), so in a world dominated by Windows games it's encouraging to see so much attention given to native Linux games.

doc wrote:I still see a lot of smoke and mirrors with Linux, as a developer and as a user.
I just see an operating system, in a world in which OSes are increasingly recognized as commodities.

FWIW, Red Hat passed $1 billion in revenue from a business built around its free OS:
http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2012/03/red-hat/
Richard Gaskin
LiveCode development, training, and consulting services: Fourth World Systems
LiveCode Group on Facebook
LiveCode Group on LinkedIn

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