LiveCode Forums.

Hi, I thought I'd start a start a thread which might give off a few fireworks from posts (or not), concerning the "fight"; "tussle"; "animosity?"; ""true" differences", etc; between computers made by Apple Mac and computers made which runs Microsoft OS.

Explain a fogged obviousness

Firstly, I'll explain the obvious here (there might be the ocassional younger person reading this whereby this hasn't clicked...) PC stands for Personal Computer. A computer manufactured by the many companies which use Microsoft OS is a PC. And so is a computer manufactured by Apple, who also supply their own OS. But it has become generic now that, despite both being PCs, that any computer (the majority) running Microsoft OS is called a PC and their "rival", Apple, all of their desktop computers are called Macs. (Their first computer named Macintosh was produced in the early 1980's).

The Ads: Apple: "Hi, I'm a Mac"..."and I'm a PC" and Microsoft "I'm a PC"
The Apple ads must have annoyed or even infuriated a lot of users of Windows OS users: the young (Apple) guy looking (or trying to look, depending on your outlook) hip, trendy, fresh-minded, student-ish (and so, supposedly more "with-it"), whatever, and the guy using PCs as slighly overweight, looking closer to middle-aged, dressed in a suit, etc. Sometimes a nail might might have been hit on the head (even from the perspective of a PC user) but to be portrayed as a stuffy middle-aged guy wasn't really fair. Perhaps they should have used a pair of twins to act the parts?

The "I'm a PC" video ads that I've seen on the web made me chuckle, I must admit (and even if my turquoize-coloured skin turned to the emerald-coloured skin of a PC user) I think I'd still chuckle. The reasons being: the blatant retort of an advertising campaign as a supposedly "subtle" touché to a previous "rival" company ad campaign. You don't often see that. And also, the way the celebrities/guests say "I'm a PC" sounds really urgent, but too urgent, as though they're saying "Quickly, call yourself a Personal Computer which is now the generic term for any computer running Microsoft OS, before you change into a computer that calls itself a Mac!"

Operating Systems

Personally, I've probably used a Windows-based computer about....10 times, in 25 years, really. The business I am in (or was, I could say) uses Macs, the first computer I ever saw was a Mac (actually it wasn't, probably a ZX Spectrum or something). I suppose it's like a newly-born duck following the first thing as it's mother!! (For interest, other computers from different manufacturers include Atari 1040ST (in fact, still got it!) and a Commodore 64).

On older models of Mac, there have been a few headaches, but like any technology its advanced wonderfully (as has Microsoft OS machines as well, I'm sure). I'm still using Tiger so only seen Leopard as pics in articles; the same with Vista. The visual design of Vista looks excellent as well. But up to £300 to get the full OS as oppossed to £85 all-in for Mac? That must be infuriating; then I read about people beginning to dislike Vista (not the visual aspects, I'm sure) because of peripheral connections problems, etc. I read Microsoft might be turining their backs on Vista anyhow and starting a fresh OS called System 7. This was read in a Mac magazine as a serious snippet of info, but I reckon it's a joke that slipped through the net, surely? System 7 was name of one of the earliest Mac OSs. Oh, and a darned good electronic music band...

From previous, very limited amount of time I spent on a PC, from a user of a Mac, two aspects niggled me (both on Windows 98 or similar); one was what I percieved as illogical (captain) whereby you held down a button labelled Start to shutdown. The other is the way that the menu bar is on every window (but I'm sure that PC users might get niggled by the fact that the Mac menu bar is only in one place); I guess it's what you were "brought-up with", computer-wise. It must be quicker though, I'm certain in as much as the mouse doesn't have to travel so far!

No viruses on Mac, thousands on a PC?

Is this actually true? Don't know. Any comments about PC viruses or supposed lack-of on a Mac?

What gets me about the authors of so-called software viruses is that it takes nous and certainly intelligence to write the code but....it would seem, not enough understanding of everyday human empathy to realise what an expensive, time-wasting, disruptive, negative-emotional, etc condition they cause to the people whose computers become "infected" by their "virus". To my mind, that aspect of their personality is on par with a house burglar or a car thief.

On-line prejudice to Mac OS, or PC OS?

Recently, on my MySpace page, whenever I tried to make a comment, the comment page would be hijacked and I would be "forced" to look at a banner ad on a white page. I call this a virus which the HTML writers don't.

I got so annoyed at their standard replies, my final reply to MySpace was:

Hello,

Thank you for replying to Spider g. I am aware of your compatability problems and lack of care for millions of your customers. Unfortunately, at this time, I am unable to communicate with you again.

For a review of computer platform prejudice, subscribe to the www.idontgiveadamn.com blog, written in 1992. This contains a complete history of computer platform prejudice, with the first being the statement:

"unfortunately, at this time we are unable to provide full support for Mac users."

They are most interested in adding, 16 years later, "Future plans do include resolving these compatibility issues." as well as updating their first statement.

Bye.

Heehee! Or not, depending how you look at it.

There are other similar veiled prejudices with some organisations, etc, but I won't bore you any more here.

Anyone have another story to tell, whether from a Mac or PC user perspective?

And I'm looking forward to any replies concerning any of the other topics here!

I use both a PC and a Mac and have enjoyed the commercials from Apple. Of course anyone who advertises is going to embellish a little, if not, what's the point of the advertisement?

I can however honestly say that my Mac has been more reliable than my PCs. I've had far less problems, if any problems at all with my Mac. Now my PCs on the other hand... Pain in the fraking arse! But! Due to the amount of software out there for PCs, I continue to use PCs also.

I love the ads that Microsoft came out with also to counter the Apple ads. While not as cute or funny as the Apple ads, it is nice to see MS put out an ad that off the main track for them like this. It's the first time that MS has done an ad where the users are the focus, and not MS itself.

This post deserves a reply
At first glance I thought "not another Mac fanboy rant" -- it's bad enough being a Windows user of Rev and putting up with what feels like constant sniping from Mac users. Before Rev I never used cross platform software -- most Windows users don't care about other platforms and don't have to.
Avoiding the obvious market share comparisons --
My wife owns an iMac and loves it. -- I don't like it at all. That said I have no logical reason for this, probably fear of the unknown. But the more Apple puts PC's down, the less I feel I want to use Apple products.

Viruses on Windows? - yep; if anyone runs XP without a service pack they will be infected by either the slammer or welchia worms within 5 minutes. My AV catches quite a few viruses -- but then my wife says that if I go into dark corners or use P2P, I'm going to catch something. As virus writers get better, the antivirus applications are getting more invasive and performance heavy. A more insidious problem more recently is websites are being poisoned with trojans without the site owners knowledge. That has happens to some of my sites recently hosted on shared servers.

VISTA -- Vista is quite good on the right hardware, but pushing the initial launch onto underpowered machines was the killer. The major hardware manufacturers adapted some of their old hardware to be "Vista ready" They should have said "almost Vista ready".
Anyone who upgraded an XP computer to Vista immediately took a performance hit. Printer drivers were a big problem. I threw away two wide format printers because parallel port support and the built in Vista drivers were much less configurable than the original drivers.
I have two P4/3.2GHz/1Gb RAM/128Mb video computers that are too slow to run Vista, IMO. Vista runs only in basic mode without Aero, so there wasn't much point in upgrading.
Vista needs core 2 duos and (at least) 1 Gb of Ram to get reasonable performance, and preferably not sharing video memory, unlike many of the student notebooks being pushed today.

cheers
Paul -- a hardened Windows user

I'm not interested in the adverts from either party.

Rev is the first environment I ever had that made me even consider cross-platform concepts.

I'm kind of from the PC side of the fence, because that's where I have the familiarity and experiece - it's only relatively recently that I became interested and/or had the time to investigate Linux and open source systems (apart from a long time ago when I played with an Open BSD setup on an old 486 as a firewall/router, but didn't really revisit anything like that for years).

I have had extremely limited experience with Macs. I therefore don't feel my opinion is really objective, as my reaction is probably based largely on the lack of familiarity, but I didn't really get any feelgood factor from the Mac. Linux is frustrating at times, but it seems worth the learning curve.

I had a dreadful time just installing a printer with the Mac, and various other setup options were just so difficult to find, and more importantly, make stick once discovered. Lack of experience probably, but I'm not familiar with every piece of software or utility on PCs or in particular Linux, but I can usually find my way around new systems relatively quickly, and I didn't like the experience with the Mac.

It was fashionable for many years (and with some justification) to knock Microsoft for bloatware/insecurities and "intrusive" software "integrated" into the PC environment. Very, very subjectively this is the area I feel most uncomfortable about with Apple software these days, with Quicktime always trying to install iTunes software and Safari browser on my PC. My wife has an iPod, and I had to rig up the iTunes software on her laptop for her, and it wasn't a "nice" experience. It felt very like the "bad" software days of Microsoft, before they cleaned up their act a bit. I also had to help my dad out when the hard disk broke on his PC and his 80GB iPod classic nearly lost all its data because having replaced the disk in the PC, iTunes only syncs one way, from PC to iPod and it was very nearly the case that it just wrote an empty database to the iPod. That's something to do with DRM issues, but it seemed very user unfriendly.

I am probably not looking objectively, I know, so I'm not going to say that everyone's Mac experience will be worse than a PC user's, that would be ridiculous. My personal feeling is that the Mac offering does not give me anything that would make me feel I had any advantage over what I have in the PC / open source arena. I am prepared to investigate when I need to, but I don't have fun "dabbling" like I do with Linux.

Hi Garrett,

Of course anyone who advertises is going to embellish a little, if not, what's the point of the advertisement?

"In our modern age", it seems that major advertising campaigns of technological products try hard, not so much now to link their product with a lifestyle, but accentuate that their product IS your lifestyle. Not so much you are what you eat as more you are "judged" on what particular model of car/computer/aftershave, etc that you purchase. So it seems to me...

I can't think of any other ad campaign though, other than the Apple series, which has taken this further still, to blatantly poke fun at another customer who doesn't use an Apple computer and the attempted subconscious "program" written in between the lines that if you change from a PC to Apple, you'll suddenly be perceived as more modern/cutting edge (whether or not you consider Apple computers to be so) and hey, you might even loosen your tie at work and lose weight!

As for software, PCs still have a terrific range of games, many-fold more than for Mac..

Anyhow (you can tell I'm feeling in a verbose mood today) it's great that you're a hardened Windows user and I suppose I'm a hardened Mac user but nice to know we probably both like brussel sprouts, or something, and the supposed great divide between PCs and Macs actually reflecting on the person who use a particular one, is not really there unless you want it to be!

Hi Paul,

At first glance I thought "not another Mac fanboy rant""

Hee, I'm 54, a bit old to be called a fanboy! Seriously though, it does amaze me to the extend that "Mac fanboys" and "PC fanboys" go to "outcool" each other (a particular ego attachment that the younger generation feel they need, I guess)

But the more Apple puts PC's down, the less I feel I want to use Apple products.

I can understand that. What I dislike is the "Mac fanboy rant" but as well, the "PC fanboy rant". I've read a few, and apart from being amusing snyping, it's a bit tragic, in my mind. Unlike even which football team you support, or whether you go for Blue Ray technology or HD DVD, etc the bantering seems mighty personal, laced with swearing and put downs which would make my mother blush...

They must be written by a younger generation, surely, whereby they were born into a so-called computer age and probably used a computer at school and even a calculator.

I told a friend's daughter once that we didn't even have calculators in school when I was there, and teased her by asking: "Do you know what an LP is?" She looked at me with slight suspicion, wondering if it was a trick question, then answered "No...

The 14 year old son of my cousin said "Apple computers are no good". I asked why he thinks that and his reply of "You have to do all the typing in yourself" still has me scratching my head...

Thanks for the info concerning viruss and Vista, made for informative reading.



PS: edit: SparkOut, not ignoring you! I was writing this while you posted.

I think it's great how using cross platform software can help us to see the other guys point of view. I do actually have a product made by Apple -- My wife bought me an iPod Touch G2; after the initial shock I realized that it was designed by a genius, it's so intuitive to use.

Paul

I use 4 operating systems on CPU's. I honestly like linux most of all. The whole B.S. Mac/ Windows crap is to sell more hardware by apple and more software by Microsoft. I personally been burned by both of these companies over and over supporting there systems by selling 3rd party commercial software that runs on there products. (which helps sell there products !!!)

I honestly do not trust either of them as far as I can throw them. Who really cares. Computers are computers. Cross platform development is the best way to go. When one company wants to screw your company and your brand over, then fine. There are many more OS's out there to let your program work on with out any drama. I try not to take any sides in what is nothing but marketing poll to sell more products, which are not made by my company (basicly if I am not getting paid from the BS ad/ marketing thing one is pulling over another, then I could care less).

(I fixed the bad spelling, sorry I am a F student in spelling, lol)

paul_gr wrote:I think it's great how using cross platform software can help us to see the other guys point of view. I do actually have a product made by Apple -- My wife bought me an iPod Touch G2; after the initial shock I realized that it was designed by a genius, it's so intuitive to use.

Paul

Oh that's a point! Yes, I found the iPod devices to be incredibly good - my gripe was with the iTunes software.

And to restate, being fair, I think that lack of familiarity with the Mac operating system is the real problem - but then I don't see any particular merit in Mac that makes me want to get familiar. If I'd started out using Macs, maybe I'd have a different opinion.

Hi SparkOut:

Rev is the first environment I ever had that made me even consider cross-platform concepts.

yes, ditto, I'm going to (eventually) supply my progs for Mac and PC, and possibly Linux.

Don't know much about Linux (never seen it "for real", for starters); Ubuntu, is that correct? Open-source OS that runs on PCs as a replacement for Microsoft, but not a Mac OS? That's about as much as I know on that score... (a sheltered computer life, me )

I had a dreadful time just installing a printer with the Mac

That does surprise me if it was one of the latest Macs cos you just run a short prog similar to a Windows wizard to install the driver, plug in the device, restart and that's that...

Still, suspicion of what you're not used to is understandable...

It surprises me that Quicktime kept trying to install iTunes and Safari onto your drive without your permission, that's not cricket...

Hi Paul, I've never owned an iPod but attracted to the iPod Touch but keep asking myself would I use it enough to warrant buying it... (mind you, if the company that's makes Tomb Raider ever wrote for it, I'd buy it within a minute!)

Hi Obleo,

Computers are computers

They sure are and the commercial tussle will never end, I suppose, that's business. Stick with what you know, I guess, if it does the job(s) for you.

By the way, can I ask if you're the same Obleo from Chicago that's a member of the Sawblade Software Forum? Sort of small world, if so!

-gyroscope

By the way, can I ask if you're the same Obleo from Chicago that's a member of the Sawblade Software Forum? Sort of small world, if so!

Yah I bought Jesse's tool for the little ones, and kind got hock on it myself. That would be me.

I knew your forum name looked familiar, I just could not remember where I seen it before.

gyroscope wrote:It surprises me that Quicktime kept trying to install iTunes and Safari onto your drive without your permission, that's not cricket...

When you download from apple either QT, Safari or iTunes, you have a selection option of having the others in one install. If you're not paying attention, you'll get all in one install. Personally I do find that annoying myself. While I like my Macs, I like QT, I like Safari, I'm not at all keen on iTunes at all. I don't care what OS it's on, I just don't like iTunes at all.

I'll use Songbird or a plugin for Winamp to let me manage my iPods.

Yes, I do pay attention, and I have (naturally enough, being a Rev user) Quicktime on my development machines. 1) Despite telling it not to associate itself as the default player for anything apart from AIFF format, QT still likes to open up as default app for all sorts of media - especially streamed from the net. 2) When it updates, it forces me to be wary and have to untick boxes so as not to download unwanted (and in my case pointless) huge files of iTunes and Safari software. Those sort of pushy-pushy niggles have helped to colour my impression.

Yes, I agree, those things tend to push my buttons aswell... Unfortunately, it's not just apple apps that do that. I try to avoid all software that is pushy like that.