LiveCode IDE Interface Right Out of 1980's

[Author]

LiveCode is a rebranding of software written more than 25 years ago and sold under various names (Meta-Card, Runtime Revolution, RunRev, Transcript, and RevTalk), but despite this long history, LiveCode's IDE interface has the look of a not-ready-for-prime-time throwback from a pre-Amiga backroom development sketch. Why? I'd be happy to work with LiveCode to come up with a contemporary forward looking look and feel for the LiveCode IDE. As example: the tool palette looks like the sort of first-sketch back-of-napkin pre-prototype pre-concept stuff I hack together during the first hour of before I start a project, worse than that. Is this only true of the free version? Does the professional paid version have an interface and environment reflecting a paid professional product? Am I missing something here? Perhaps there is a reason for LiveCode's hopelessly outdated look and feel? Is this some sort of retro steam punk first-gen Nintendo Amiga Atari Pong ephemera thing? Why isn't there a target mode runtime switch icon bar that would allow the user to flip between target platforms (iOS, Android, Mac, Unix, Windows, etc) so that their project (stack) look swaps native widgets and interface elements to match the intended target platform? If this is really a develop once – publish to many platforms IDE, than why does one have to pre-choose a target platform aspect and pixel dimentions canvas before beginning development? What about target platform native objects? Looks like LiveCode builds will only look the part of their target build platform if the user goes through the trouble of building their own mimics of target platform dynamic objects (buttons, fields, widgets, content and media containers, regions, controllers, graphics, images, videos, internet elements, etc). All of these target platforms offer up target specific affordances, tools, codecs, smart objects, task libraries, macros, extensions, etc)… why aren't these powerful target platform technologies reflected in the LiveCode IDE itself? Why doesn't the "History" video on the LiveCode website reference Dan Winkler's Hypertalk and Bill Atkinson's real time high level interpreted user level development platform HyperCard or Bill Appleton's SuperCard or Xerox's earlier object-oriented message-passing language SmallTalk that made it all posible, or any of the other tech and research that LiveCode is an obvious direct copy of? That video makes it look as though LiveCode was invented tabila-rosa whole-cloth by two self-professed university dropouts... it wasn't, not even close. I'd like liveCode to succeed. Wildly. If it doesn't, all of the effort extended by all of LiveCode's customers is for not. That eventuality is as irresponsible as it is tragic. People who think big thoughts, who venture ideas about the future, who want to change what is, are people who care about their tools, who want tools that look the part, that create products that are as forward looking as their ideas. No?

Asking for a friend.

[FourthWorld]

[tons of stuff] No?

Asking for a friend.

Good to see you back here, "Author".

Forgive what may be my poor reading, but what exactly is the question? There was a lot packed in there (line breaks are helpful for busy readers to grasp key points).

Is there something you're building we might be able to help you with?

[stam]

...contemporary forward looking look and feel for the LiveCode IDE...

It's difficult to read this long, uninterrupted stream of text which seems to degenerate into a rant, but i take it you're unhappy with the IDE's look and feel? You may want to consider splitting text into paragraphs so it's actually readable.

The points i can discern from this post have been mentioned previously and I'm sure LC are aware. A long rant like this doesn't really add anything helpful. I would argue that priority should be given to other aspects of the IDE, notably the code editor (code-folding, theming etc) but then again i have other priorities.

LC have yet other priorities and certainly the road plan for version 10 looks interesting, even it it doesn't necessarily address the look and feel of the IDE, although it may do.

If this is what is the priority for you, there is nothing to stop you editing the IDE (pretty much normal stacks)...

[richmond62]

I guess I am "straight out of the 1980s" (I was born in 1962), but I like the LC IDE GUI just as it is.

Well, 95%; but there never has been and there never will be any sort of an interface that keeps everyone happy all of the time.

By way of comparison it might be worth pointing out that the vast majority of programming languages do not have a GUI at all.

I have posted rants before, and the only thing I learnt was that rants just make people pissed off.

Also not a bad idea, if you want to use poncy, vaguely academic terms to spell them correctly: tabula rasa

John Locke's ghost must be frothing at the mouth.

[richmond62]

two self-professed university dropouts

Well, let's think about University dropouts for a moment . . .

Let's start with Bill Gates: I don't know whether any napkins were involved, but the vast majority of personal computers
seem to depend on his software.

Let's carry on with Steve Jobs: not really so bad.

The funny thing is that I have 3 University degrees, but if I could only achieve 5% of those 2 University dropouts
I would be more than happy.

[richmond62]

Am I missing something here?

Quite a lot as far as I can tell.

One of the things you are missing is that everyone else's subjective judgement (and especially those who
have worked with MetaCard . . . LiveCode for the last 20 odd years) is at least as valuable as yours.

I use a slide-rule that Dad gave me for my 14th birthday present: it is not quite as 'retro' as Napier's Bones,
but certainly tending in that direction. I have not used a calculator for about 20 years. Why?
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sRule.jpeg (5.97 KiB) Viewed 2477 times

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For the simple reason that I prefer my slide-rule and find that it provides me with all the Mathematical guff
I need that I am unable to workout with a pencil and paper. I am NOT telling anyone else to use a slide-rule,
and I am not telling people either that an abacus is crap.

However, unlike that photo: my bottom lines do not get "all orgasmic" anent Naperian logs but supply me with sines, tangents and secants.

[jacque]

Also not a bad idea, if you want to use poncy, vaguely academic terms to spell them correctly: tabula rasa

The one that caught me up was "for not." He meant "for naught."

At any rate, if the Author has any artistic talents, or knows someone who does, he could submit his ideas to the team for consideration. Or even better, redesign the tools palette and submit that. But to my eye, the palette doesn't look much different from the one in my copy of Photoshop Elements, though I admit it's fairly old now.

[richmond62]

The one that caught me up was "for not." He meant "for naught."

Blast, missed that one.

I am a terrible intellectual snob; but I am NOT an educational snob.

If someone wants to use 'inkhorn' terms or somesuch, they should use them properly, or not bother.
Saying things in a straightforward manner if far, far better than making yourself look foolish with
bad spelling and malapropisms.

As soon as the OP started on about University dropouts my hackles went up.

Many, many years ago I worked every summer (for about a 12 year period) with a farmer who left school at 12,
but had taught himself Latin and Greek and read his way "round the world", and could keep his own in most
conversations.

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The other thing about the OP's rant was that there were no pictures of what, exactly, the revolutionary (pun intended)
new GUI for LiveCode should look like, nor, for that matter any pictures of anything s/he was measuring the LC GUI against.

I would put the whole thing down to dyspepsia.
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GIMP 2.10.30

[richmond62]

The OP has posted exactly twice since s/he joined . . .

. . . or, as George Bush said, "Read my lips."

Both of the posts have been of the aggressive, "in your face" style which gives me what
Granny called "the dry boak."

[richmond62]

Why doesn't the "History" video on the LiveCode website reference Dan Winkler's Hypertalk and Bill Atkinson's real time high level interpreted user level development platform HyperCard or Bill Appleton's SuperCard or Xerox's earlier object-oriented message-passing language SmallTalk that made it all posible, or any of the other tech and research that LiveCode is an obvious direct copy of?

For the same sort of reason that my CV doesn't refer to a cobbler (that is 'soutar' in Scots: mind you, he probably spoke Gaelic) that made shoes on the Isle of Bute in the 18th century who is my ancestor; nor, for that matter the wandering Homo sapiens who spotted a sexy Neanderthal and decided to make whoopy, and led to people like me with a warped sense of humour.

Too long winded, too boring, and too utterly everything else . . . zzzz

[FourthWorld]

Folks, let's see if we can set aside the personal judgement.

It's clear from "Author"'s first post that the account holder is a long-time SuperCard fan. That makes them a de facto member of the xTalk developer family. Let's treat family like we'd like family to treat us, please.

Sure, the OP is a bit all over the map, and as I've written I was unable to find the actionable question there.

But that doesn't necessarily mean it was written in bad faith. It may just be frustration. The SuperCard forums have threads about their own challenges, and these LC forums have no shortage of posts asking for an updated IDE experience (including some from participants in this thread). And that's as good as it gets for xTalk fans right now; aside from LC and SC the rest are either long dead or so close to it a heartbeat is barely detectable.

We know the value of xTalks. All of us, including "Author", know what they could bring to the world given the right circumstances.

I'm not going to fault someone for being passionate about xTalks. I'd just like to see if I can learn what specifically is being asked.

My own writing here is frequently misunderstood and dismissed if it gets read at all. Yet despite my unclear posts, no one questions my motives.

Let's please extend that common courtesy of assuming good intentions to "Author" as well.

Once the ideas are refined into something actionable, we may find "Author"'s fresh take a valuable contribution.

Let's see what they have to say...

[mwieder]

That's one dense rant there. Some good points among the dregs though.
The dismal tools palette is the reason I made PowerTools in the first place. And made it display objects in the native OS.

And I could swear that in the past we could switch themes among the various target operating systems, but I can't find it now.
Somehow disappeared when I wasn't looking.

[richmond62]

in the past we could switch themes among the various target operating systems

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About 20-odd years ago.

None of which are going to be much use at the moment.

[richmond62]

The dismal tools palette

Well, again that is a subjective statement; and as we have been stuck
with that Tools Palette since about Runtime Revolution 2.6 . . .

From a personal point of view I see no obvious advantage of your Tools palette
over the built-in one.

. . . Yes, it might be time for a "slight" bump-up . . .

The problem, such as it is, is whose bump-up are we going to have?

If you want a cheap laugh, try using the Quicktime Player . . .

Here I was, about 17-18 years ago:

http://richmondsrevolution.pbworks.com/ ... 0Interface
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Which should show us that beyond "going gray" not much has changed.
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GoGay.jpeg (14.89 KiB) Viewed 2379 times

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I knew it was time for some light relief.

[richmond62]

"Right Out of the 1980's" is, of course
hyperbole . . .

. . . as the current IDE is right out of about 2002.