The day after (Help LiveCode to go back to school!)

[richmond62]

I am astonished that most wanna-be programmers don't simply see LC as a miracle.

I am astonished that most computer programming teachers don't simply see LC as a miracle.

I am astonished the LiveCode people have not been doorstepping education authorities
round the world, shoving LiveCode down their collective throats.

I am astonished that, despite protestations, the actions of LiveCode speak volumes.

Nobody is beating a path to your door from the education world, yet you have a fantastic
educational tool, so you should be out their beating paths to their doors.

[Mariasole]

We have an answer from the big boss... finally!
As promised at the beginning of this thread I make any communication public, since I am not "me" but I am "the world of teachers."
Here is Kevin's response:


Hi Mariasole,
Thank you very much for taking the time to write. I have spent some time considering this request and talking to other educators too. Allowing students to learn to code is something close to my heart and we are keen to provide something suitable now we have moved away from open source. I am pleased to be able to tell you that we will soon be introducing a free edition of the new web-based version of LiveCode, which we hope will fill the gap you talk about in education. There will be some feature limits but nonetheless it should be sufficient to teach with. We will of course have paid editions beyond that that include additional capabilities for teachers, but these will be optional and you will be able to teach without needing to pay. In the mean time, please continue to use the old open source version. I hope this addresses the concerns you had. Many thanks again for taking the time to write.

Kind regards,

Kevin

So we should have our free version for teaching (and preventing alzheimer's in the elderly!).

I publicly thank Kevin Miller for responding and will read his response to my students, which I consider (and we consider) a serious commitment...

I thank ALL the friends who have continued to keep this thread alive and who will surely.... continue to watch for promises to be kept....

Un bacio a tutti!
Mariasole
(='.'=)

[dunbarx]

I think this might be very important news indeed.

Kevin noted that there would be certain limitations to the web-based educational version.

HAH! If only 100 native words were included, teachers and students would be able to concoct almost anything they wanted to. It is not necessary, in my view, to include any "high-level" gadgetry, for example, anything beginning with "merg", anything connecting to a dataBase, anything beginning with "rev", etc. It should allow some URL capabilities and, I guess, dataGrids.

The reason for this is to limit the size of the dictionary. And by "dictionary", I mean the resource that students and teachers have in order to do research. Even for me the actual dictionary is huge, and I at least know a little about how to search it. But a new student user MUST NOT be exposed to that gadget. I think it would frighten most away.

I do strongly recommend including the "put" command.

It would be considered a monumental success if ever new users complained that they needed, and wished for, more.. The program can hint at what the "Full" version has to offer...

Craig

[dunbarx]

Maybe too harsh with "rev".

Things like "revPrintField" and the like should be included.

Craig

[richmond62]

It is to be hoped that any web-based version can be downloaded for off-line use, albeit inwith a browser.

[stam]

No one can fathom the plans of the LC mothership and it’s certainly caught all by surprise more than once…

My (perhaps unjustified) impression is that this will not be available for offline use, out of belief that people can and will just use it to distribute apps in code form.

I know for certain that LC is against producing an IDE without the ability to build standalones for this reason - this was very clearly stated by LC at the time of the big upheaval… so how would this be different if available offline?

Maybe the limitations they introduce are such that anyone actually building a full app couldn’t use this, but I hope not as that would be a slap on the face of the other 90% of LC users (a percentage I just made up, but seems legit )

In fairness most educational institutions that teach programming should have some form of internet access? And most people have a phone and regularly use it for internet apps? (Ie whose younger children could use?)

So even if online only, this should still be a valuable tool for education?

[richmond62]

In fairness a very large number of schools (my son visited some in Malawi) have NO internet access at all, or, at best, a single wired connexion in the staffroom.

'Most people have a phone', presumably you mean a smartphone.

Well, Yes, 30% of secondary school kids in Bulgaria do, and that's Europe.

North Americans don't have a clue hòw the other 90% of the world live.

[dunbarx]

Richmond.

North Americans don't have a clue hòw the other 90% of the world live.

We most certainly do have a clue. We just don't pay much attention.

Craig

[stam]

Ahhhhh, pure Richmond! Everything is right with the world again

North Americans don't have a clue hòw the other 90% of the world live.

if you you're referring to me as being North American you couldn't be more wrong if you tried (and you are trying ).
Where does this comment even fit in...???

Well, Yes, 30% of secondary school kids in Bulgaria do, and that's Europe.

No, i wasn't referring to children owning smart phones - as child doesn't need to own a smartphone, just have access to one. In fact, not even that - they just need a parent or relative to allow network sharing from one. And well over 70% (if not 90%) of adults with young families across Europe own some kind of smartphone.

So actually the percentage of children with access (rather than ownership) is significantly higher. If a parent wants to pay for their child to learn to program the minimum expectation would be for that parent to allow use of their device if not being able to access the internet through traditional means. I can't see how that would be an obstacle for a determined child

In fairness a very large number of schools (my son visited some in Malawi) have NO internet access at all, or, at best, a single wired connexion in the staffroom.

And fair enough, there isn't internet access in Malawi. Understandable.
Is this a concern for LC?
Are you postulating LC needs to produce a standalone offline version of their web based IDE so that children in Malawi can use this?
Is that a reasonable expectation?


On the other hand, providing a free online IDE both caters to at least 60-70% of need for freebies while allowing them to look after their bottom line - if they don't look after their bottom line and the company fails, this all goes away... (did i really need to say this?)

[dunbarx]

I remember when the world was divided into four groups.

"First World": USA, France, Luxembourg. You get the picture, as Klaus would say from his first world domicile.

"Second World": USSR, Bulgaria, Cuba. Sad, maddening, terrifying, but survivable for most who lived there.

"Third World": Developing nations; Brazil, China(!), Pakistan.

"Fourth World": Malawi, Haiti, Burundi, the list goes on...

These days that last category has been deleted entirely, likely as a feel-good measure by those pesky first-worlders. It never had much real value in the first place, except, as Richmond might put it, to allow us Americans to feel good about ourselves. "Sticks and stones...", you see.

I now understand, however, in our Spoke world even that has been updated to read that words are more harmful than stones.

I don't speak Spoke. I'll take words any day.

Craig

[richmond62]

To a large extent this whole discussion seems a bit academic because:

1. The last Open Source version of Livecode is freely available and can be used for teaching (as I am doing right now), and standalones can be made from it.

2. A non-LC branded Open Source version of 9.6.3 with
additions is in the pipeline (I have tested an early version on Linux).

[richmond62]

re Malawi . . .

I was giving an example, among very many, where internet is either rubbish or non-existent, smart phones are rare or non-existent, but where there are young, intelligent people who would benefit from learning how to program computers.

[richmond62]

I should also like to point out that LC have, very generously, helped me with educational provisioning which I intend to make full use of once version 10 is ready.

[jiml]

According to Out of Order The State of the World’s Toilets 2017 56% of Mawalians (about 10 million people) have no access to basic sanitation.
Maybe toilets would be a tad more beneficial for Mawalians than copies of LC.

https://washmatters.wateraid.org/sites/ ... 202017.pdf

[richmond62]

Maybe toilets would be a tad more beneficial for Mawalians than copies of LC.

Malawians ?

That may NOT be the case:

My sister, for many many years, worked from an organisation called Water Aid, and was involved with setting up pit-latrines in isolated Ethiopian villages: which sounds all very noble, and obviously advantageous until one takes a closer look.

https://www.wateraid.org/us/

In the Ethiopean mountains there are a large number of wolves that like to eat babies.

To keep away the wolves the villagers keep dogs.

As the villagers are extremely poor and DID not have access to regular supplies of meat, the dogs subsisted on eating human excrement
(which, by-the-by, is extremely nutritious as humans are very bad indeed at digesting things and extracting the nutrients).

Once the villagers started using the pit-latrines, there was no 'food' for the dogs, so they, along with the wolves, started eating the babies.

This got so bad that villagers blocked up their pit-latrines and went back to their old ways of "taking a poo" under 'that tree over there'.