Teenage Problem

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Re: Teenage Problem

Post by FourthWorld » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:12 pm

dunbarx wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:06 pm
@Richard Gaskin (if you see this; you are not in this thread) You have always asserted that LC by its nature should never crash. Do you still maintain this?
The ideal of scripting languages is a comfortable buffer from the tedious intricacies of lower-level programming.

There's hardly any point to automating type coercion and memory management if that automation is broken. ;)

So in a perfect world, all errors triggered by script would be caught by the scripting engine, which would provide a more graceful degradation than just a hard crash. Bonus points where it can also provide at least a hint as to what our script did to trigger the error.

But that is of course just an ideal. In our imperfect world, where all software is made by an imperfect species, imperfections are inevitable.

A perfect circle exists only in the mind of a mathematician. In the natural universe forces interact, however subtly, to alter the circle into a form deviating at least somewhat from its mathematical definition.

And so it is with software. While ideally no scripting engine should ever crash, in practice sooner or later all of them do. All nontrivial software always has bugs.

When we encounter the inevitable bug we report it to the maintainers, and bit by bit the software is hoped to reach ever closer to the ideal, even if the true ideal cannot be reached.

Like a smart product manager I used to work with back in the '90s was fond of saying, "Let's aim high. The problem with aiming low is you're likely to hit your target." ;)
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Re: Teenage Problem

Post by richmond62 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:25 pm

Yes, well, our school chaplain used to say,

"Aim for 80% rather than 50%, then you'll be happy when you manage 65%."

Probably better to aim for 100% but bear in mind you'll never quite make it.

AND, what has this got to do with my pupil who is greeting her eyes out after 2 weeks
of work going "kabumf"?

AND, there was I feeling all smug and self-satisfied (and being an extremely self-controlled
person for the first or second time in my life and NOT being snotty to this girl about her using Windows)
thinking, "Oh, well, it's Windows." When, "Lo!" we find this can happen on Mac as well.

Of course that girl is now having to swallow the bitter pill we've all swallowed several times about
backups . . . doesn't stop me feeling sorry for her.

----

I really did believe that LiveCode always left a "~" tilded file 'behind' when it went kabumf, honest. 8)

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Re: Teenage Problem

Post by richmond62 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:31 pm

HyperCard did NOT require anyone to remember to SAVE anything as it saved as it went along, automatically.

That does make it a bit awkward if one wants to retrench to an earlier version of one's work.

But an autosave feature built-in to the IDE with date-stamps and an end-user adjustable save interval
might be a very good idea indeed.

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Re: Teenage Problem

Post by FourthWorld » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:38 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:25 pm
Of course that girl is now having to swallow the bitter pill we've all swallowed several times about
backups . . . doesn't stop me feeling sorry for her.
The lesson of backups is almost always a painful one. I don't know of anyone who's set up adequate redundancy across multiple types of storage without first having suffered a loss from not doing so.

If there's a silver lining here it's that this pain is most beneficial when experienced in youth: today's lost homework becomes tomorrow's payroll system.
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Re: Teenage Problem

Post by FourthWorld » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:47 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:31 pm
HyperCard did NOT require anyone to remember to SAVE anything as it saved as it went along, automatically.

That does make it a bit awkward if one wants to retrench to an earlier version of one's work.

But an autosave feature built-in to the IDE with date-stamps and an end-user adjustable save interval
might be a very good idea indeed.
Autosave is common enough these days to consider having it as an option.

In HyperCard's case it was less a design decision than a simple necessity:

Most apps back then required explicit save for documents; HC's autosave was quite anomalous for 1987.

But given the small memory in Macs at that time, to accommodate larger stacks they had no choice but to use a page-from-disk system, and the complexities of such schemes make it impractical to attempt to rely solely on explicit save (temp files and lots of disk churn).
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Re: Teenage Problem

Post by richmond62 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:56 pm

Autosave would at least reduce teenagers' problems by one. 8)

Although, to be frank, I do think it is important that they learn the value of backups; just not
in such a heart-breaking fashion.

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Re: Teenage Problem

Post by FourthWorld » Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:08 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:56 pm
Although, to be frank, I do think it is important that they learn the value of backups; just not
in such a heart-breaking fashion.
I wish it were that way for many of life's most valuable lessons. But the same evolutionary path that granted us rich imaginations also sometimes limits the application of that imagination to positive things (see lotteries), while often yielding suboptimal risk assessments ("If I drive recklessly fast I can arrive at my destination 90 seconds earlier", and "If I don't think about known failure rates for storage devices they won't affect me.").

I've done it. We all do it. Only after a serious data loss did I set up multiple redundant backups.

https://youtu.be/qpjHW4mr6qo
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Re: Teenage Problem

Post by jacque » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:32 pm

richmond62 wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:31 pm
But an autosave feature built-in to the IDE with date-stamps and an end-user adjustable save interval
might be a very good idea indeed.
It's already there. There's an auto-save stack in the Plugins menu that allows adjustable times.

Since the student is on a Mac she should activate Time Machine. It works without a backup drive attached when away and stores files locally until the backup is reattached.

Regarding the tilde file, that is only created during the save operation. If the save is successful it's deleted. If there's a crash there's no time to save, and LC doesn't even know it happened. The light switch was flipped off suddenly and without warning.
Jacqueline Landman Gay | jacque at hyperactivesw dot com
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Re: Teenage Problem

Post by richmond62 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 6:48 pm

Since the student is on a Mac she should activate Time Machine.
Far from it, as I have indicated, she is using a machine running Windows.

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