Complete HyperCard Handbook (2.2)

[anmldr]

Is this book still relevant for learning the theory and scripting for LiveCode? I realize that the GUI has changed and a lot has been added in about 20 years.

I have an old copy and I really like the way that Goodman writes.

I looked at the recent book on LiveCode and it just was not for me. I am not saying that it may not be great for others... I just want to know if this old book will help. It has a very simple approach and is really thorough for HyperCard 2.2 (which of course is outdated).

Linda

[FourthWorld]

I like Goodman's style and I learned a lot from that book myself. In some respects it can be helpful, but the object model and syntax is largely a subset of LiveCode, and different enough in some respects that at times using HyperCard materials can introduce their own unlearning curve.

That said, if you read the LC docs as you go through Goodman, you'll probably be able to sort out the differences as you go and enjoy the areas where they overlap.

Please consider using this thread as a place for you to post questions and observations as you go. A lot of people have this question and similar ones relating to other HyperCard legacy books, so your perspective as a new LiveCoder is especially valuable.

[dunbarx]

I think I have been the most enthusiastic proponent of using this and its cohort, "Hypercard 2.2, the Book" as introductory reading to learn LC. Richard is correct in that you must take these books broadly, since there are differences between LC and HC, but I believe that the vast majority of the basics in both of these books is directly applicable to LC.

But more importantly, there is nothing close to their scope in LC. It is the one thing I wish for in order to ease the learning of the program. There is no comparable work, with examples and scripts, for LC at all.

One would start with a new "mainStack" instead of a "new stack". So yes, there are differences while getting started, but since HC is a subset of LC, one would never trip on the concept of groups, say, since these would never be mentioned. It is in fact quite possible to follow the course and scripts in these books while testing and experimenting only in LC, never once using HC at all.

You cannot get a faster start than with using these two books. You will leave them quickly, and graduate into the LC starter materials. Or run both concurrently. But you will soon have a sound and fundamental sense of how LC works, and what it can do, which is just about anything.

Craig Newman

[anmldr]

Thanks.

[jacque]

Goodman's book will be excellent for syntax, concepts in general, and overview. Some things that won't apply: menus, externals, some of the message hierarchy (LiveCode's is far more extensive,) some concepts about groups/backgrounds, how icons, sounds, and images work (there is no resource fork any more.) HyperCard had a few hundred commands, LiveCode has over 2,000, so Goodman's book will be a very small sample of what's available. But the basics are the same and the book can be a good starting point if you know what to ignore.

[rwhe]

The ebook RunRevPlanet LiveCode Tips has some comments on the Goodman books.

http://downloadbranch.com/rrpLiveCode-Tips-eBook.pdf

"Not all old HyperCard books are worthwhile, in the late 1980's some publishing
houses churned out books of questionable value and quality to cash in on “Hyper”
fever, so it is a case of buyer beware when finding them in a second-hand
bookstore or on Amazon. One that RunRevPlanet does recommend is The
Complete Hypercard 2.0 Handbook 3rd Edition by Danny Goodman.

"Part Three of Goodman's book is titled HyperCard's Programming Environment
and contains chapters 20 to 46. As you read through these chapters, remember to
consult the LiveCode Dictionary for differences – which there will be. The rest of
the book is not as useful and has dated more dramatically and in most cases should
be ignored, but with Part Three covering 380 pages it makes the book worthwhile
if you can pick it up cheaply."

I have both the second edition (HyperCard 1.25, if I recall correctly) and the fourth edition (Hypercard 2.2), so the editions before and after the one recommended. The relevant parts are the same in all three editions -- Part 3, chapters 20-46.

I'm sure the third edition is fine, but I recommend picking up the fourth edition for HC 2.2. I believe it's the most recent edition of the book, although I could be wrong -- Amazon apparently did a reprint of it at some point, and the metadata in their database is all fouled up. Anyway, I got my copy used, and it's informative and enjoyable.

[edgore]

I would love to have a Livecode equivalent of this book. I taught myself Hypercard using the first edition of this book (without access to a Mac!). If someone wants to make a quick $50 bucks I will gladly pay you that much for one!

[FourthWorld]

It's always a healthy sign for a dev tool that there are plenty of third-party books out there, but at the same time we all want the docs included in the package to be the best they can be as well.

What did you find especially useful in Goodman's book that isn't covered in the materials included in the LiveCode install?

[edgore]

If that was directed at me, then...

I don't really have any problem with the included docs, except that they are very out of date. I assume that this will improve once the new engine is done and everything settles down, though. The thing that I like about the Goodman books, as people have previously mentioned, was the writing style - they were very enjoyable reads even if you didn't have a Mac and a copy of Hypercard around.

[andrewferguson]

Hi,
On RunRev's old website they had a page that described all the differences between LiveCode and HyperCard.
Link: http://web.archive.org/web/201210251528 ... /hypercard

As for me, well I do use books on HyperCard to learn LiveCode, but I mainly use them when I am learning about HyperCard! (I have an eMac running Classic just so I can run HyperCard)

Andrew

[FourthWorld]

In my experience working with newcomers to LiveCode with little or no background in HyperCard, the value of using HyperCard books is mixed: while Goodman and others do a great job of introducing many core language concepts, many implementations of those concepts are either difficult to figure out how to achieve in the very different LiveCode IDE, or no longer a good solution given LC's deeper object model and broader language options.

So in an attempt to resolve that I dropped a note to Mr. Goodman asking him if he might consider writing a book on LiveCode.

I'll keep you posted if I hear back from him.

[dunbarx]

Richard.

You did!?

If he is even remotely interested, this would be a much larger effort, his "head start" notwithstanding. Perhaps he might consider a book of the same range as the Handbook, in other words up to the intermediate level, and not need a dictionary included. I bought Mark's book, which is terrific, but he limited himself to an overview, for which he can hardly be blamed.

I would contribute to funding such a project. I would think Runrev would as well, as they ought to understand how beneficial this would be, especially to new users. If LC had an off-the-shelf manual, I think it would both comfort and vastly increase the user base.

Craig

[rwhe]

If this were a Kickstarter project, I would contribute too.

Who am I? A data point.

[FabricioRocha]

Excuse me: I am also trying to find good docs about Livecode, its Hypertalk-like language, etc. Actually I still have to get LC running in my 64-bit Ubuntu, but I could finally put my hands in Goodman's book (2nd edition though) some minutes ago.

It would be good if Goodman himself would embrace the cause, but I think he will not.

So I'm thinking about a Livecode wiki, inspired by Goodman's book. The first page of this wiki would be much like the table of contents in the book, with some things included. So, Livecode users which are more experienced, and people who is reading an old book and doing comparisons with the current documentation for Livecode, could join the effort for writing in the same style found in the book.

Is there anything similar already available?

Thanks and regards!

Fabricio Rocha
Brasilia, Brasil

[FourthWorld]

Excuse me: I am also trying to find good docs about Livecode, its Hypertalk-like language, etc. Actually I still have to get LC running in my 64-bit Ubuntu...

Once you do that you'll find that it includes a 378-page User Guide, so let's get your LC install first so you can apply whatever learning materials you'll find or help create.

Did you have any luck searching Google for how to add the older repos for ia32-libs?