LiveCode Forums.

Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:47 am**

I am really having an awful time trying to decide on Livecode or not.

I have 0 programming skills yet I am an IT Administrator. I am Redhat Linux certified and I am capable of administrating networks with my eyes closed. Yet when it comes to programming I just am a simple n00b.
Until I discovered Livecode and I was so completely excited. A language written for n00bs. Yippie!
Then i downloaded the trial and emailed support some questions, scoured the web reading reviews about livecode and spent about 2 weeks investigating.

During my investigation i discovered a few products like "Gamesalad" and Appcelerator's Titanium studio.
Both look interesting however I suck at anything graphical for me to work with Gamesald and I don't want to hire the help of a friend cause I'd rather keep any profit made to myself.
As far as Appcelerator's product well its just not easy at all. There isn't even a GUI for creating a "Stack". it has to be hand-written. So i completely wrote it off.

Now I am back to Livecode once more and I do remember my main three issues with it from the start.

1- I want native controls. Yes there is mobgui but its so old. it hasn't been updated in forever! I am also aware of tmControl but its freekin' expensive! Besides tmcontrol doesn't have an android theme. Shame!

2- Obviously i'd want to develop for android too. Isnt that the purpose of livecode? i want the ability to write one code and have it compile for both with little changes in the code/script.

3- Documentation. As I stated I am new to the programming scene. livecode feels so "tightly controlled" with its own fanboy community and while thats great what happens when I just starting out and i get stuck? i want to learn it fast so i can get rolling.

3- Resolution. Its obvious that in the iOS world there's a limited number of devices with screen sizes. Well in the android world there's lots of screen sizes. I need to be able to have my app re-size without much code automatically.

So really those my current issues right now. If i can figure out a solution for them that works then I'd go ahead and purchase and start.

Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:32 pm**

Hi cylent,
so ...

1. Design you own controls

... is not difficult in LiveCode. Here a nice place to get something http://www3.economy-x-talk.com/file.php ... i-elements to learn how to do, after ... is only up to your fantasy

2. If you have your own controls (... see point 1) you can use the same on both platforms to create something "different" that all people create on both platforms using standard controls ...

3. On the RunRev site there are really a lot of tutorials and samples ... for mobile this is very good : http://www.amazon.co.uk/LiveCode-Mobile ... 021&sr=8-3

4. You have to write ONE time a good resizer handler and you can use it on all devices to adapt to the screens size

Guglielmo

Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:54 pm**

gpb01 did a good job with each of your questions; all I can add is an encouraging note to this:

cylent wrote:As I stated I am new to the programming scene. livecode feels so "tightly controlled" with its own fanboy community and while thats great what happens when I just starting out and i get stuck? i want to learn it fast so i can get rolling.

The "fanboys" of any language are the go-to resource for when you get stuck.

The enthusiasm of programmers who love the languages they work in a feature, not a bug.

From my early efforts with Pascal back in the '80s, through C in the '90s, and every xTalk in between and since, I've leaned heavily on the shoulders of experts who've saved my bacon more times than I can count. This spirit of sharing seems inherent in the culture of programmers, and is arguably why the world has been able to benefit so much from the computing revolution: the multiplicity of code built on other code and knowledge freely shared.

You're already a member of this forum, so you already have access to the brain trust of helpful people who will do their best to any almost any question you have.

As gpb01 noted, the tutorials and sample projects included in the LiveCode install are good starting points, as is the comprehensive set of Lessons at the RunRev.com site.

But for any question not addressed there, please feel free to post it here. For every question here there's probably a dozen other people who have the same one but didn't post it, so this exchange is always useful to a great many people.

Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:14 pm**

Cylent-

Expect that it will take about six weeks to "get" it.
I'd advise you to sign up for a monthly subscription for now. Then if you've given it a try for a couple of months and decide it's not for you, you aren't out a lot of resources. But once it clicks you can convert to a real license. I think you're gonna like it here.

In a way you've got an advantage in not having a strong programming background. LiveCode is so different from other environments that you won't have to go through a long unlearning curve.
And I have to disagree a bit with Guglielmo

Design you own controls ... is not difficult in LiveCode.

I think getting the hang of this isn't immediately intuitive. Not that it's hard, but you have to wrap your brain around it just right.

With regard to point 3, I'll add my vote for Colin's book for mobile development. And there's http://docs.runrev.com and http://lessons.runrev.com to help out.

Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:04 pm**

I think this is the first time I've beat Klaus to this link:

http://www.runrev.com/developers/lesson ... nferences/

If you work your way through those stacks in order, you'll learn very quickly and be a pro in no time. All the basics are there.

Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:19 pm**

I think this is the first time I've beat Klaus to this link

Posted: **Tue Oct 09, 2012 7:27 pm**

mwieder wrote:...
And I have to disagree a bit with Guglielmo

Design you own controls ... is not difficult in LiveCode.
I think getting the hang of this isn't immediately intuitive. Not that it's hard, but you have to wrap your brain around it just right.
...

Wait Mark ...
... i also added : "Here a nice place to get something http://www3.economy-x-talk.com/file.php ... i-elements to learn how to do, after ... is only up to your fantasy " ...

Downloading the stack written by your namesake

direct in the right way and show how to create iOS controls just using graphics and buttons

Guglielmo

Posted: **Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:34 am**

Ok so i'll purchase the 99$ deal.

Where do i start? i feel so nervous!

Posted: **Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:42 am**

cylent wrote:Ok so i'll purchase the 99$ deal.

Where do i start? i feel so nervous!

Obviously ... from the Jacque and Klaus suggestion : http://www.runrev.com/developers/lesson ... nferences/ ...

Guglielmo

Posted: **Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:45 pm**

cylent wrote:i feel so nervous!

No need to feel nervous. You should feel scared, because here's what's about to happen to you:

In the first few days, you'll find enough really simple stuff that you'll think, "Wow, where has this been all my life?"

Then for a few weeks you'll start building practical things, and since LiveCode is such an unusual system you'll scratch your head and start wondering, "OMG - what have I gotten myself into?"

But then the scary part starts:

It'll all start to gel for you, and you'll find yourself so enchanted by this strange but remarkable tool that you'll start staying up late to keep playing with it, ignoring less interesting aspects of life like walking the dog or washing the dishes, and you'll start to realize just how many things you can build with LiveCode that you'll start building them all, eventually unable to leave the keyboard for days at a time, and will have to keep your pizza delivery man on auto-dial because even cooking will seem less interesting than writing one more line of code.

If that happens to you, do try to make time for friends' birthday parties and greeting your partner at the end of the day to ask how their day went. All the rest of life is optional, and well worth blowing off for spending more time with LiveCode.

Posted: **Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:51 pm**

Code: Select all

If that happens to you, do try to make time for friends' birthday parties and greeting your partner at the end of the day to ask how their day went.

Or write a LiveCode program that will send a "How was your day, dear?" message to your partner's smart phone

Posted: **Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:05 pm**

futhermore...

I have created a bunch of Pros and Cons:

+Positives

Can build for both android and iOS. I am not gonna lie and say in one big swoosh as in there have to be some code modifications ...

We have one unified environment to do all the work which is great.

Supposed to have an easy to with programming language based on hypercard however the language still isnt easy to pick up.

-Negatives

LC is madly expensive whereas the tools for iOS and android are free (xcode and eclipse)

No native controls support for either iOS or android. Must either pay for third party addon or painful import of images to mask buttons / controls.

Language is somewhat crude. "put this in this" and other phrases ... seriously? Much learning to be done.

Lack of documentation or rather not able to find docs that teach the language itself. As opposed to hundreds if not more tutorials on learning java and objective-c

Shall we put these on the scale to see which out-weighs what?

I REALLY REALLY want to get into livecode but the negatives are too much. especially the price and the learning curve.. I did get the amazon book by colin holgate, Livecode mobile development. The problem is he doesnt teach you the language.

anyways .. any advise is greatly appreciated.

Posted: **Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:34 pm**

cylent wrote:Language is somewhat crude. "put this in this" and other phrases ... seriously? Much learning to be done.

Respectfully, that's simply a matter of taste. One man's "crude" is another man's "elegant".

Consider this Objective C example from Apple's site:

Code: Select all

#import <stdio.h>

int main( int argc, const char *argv[] ) {
    printf( "hello world\n" );
    return 0;
}

...compared this one-liner in LiveCode:

Code: Select all

put "hello world"

You could even extend that to create a window, create a field, and put "hello world" into the field, and it's still just about half a dozen lines, compared to the 50-100 lines needed to accomplish the same trivial task in C.

Which one seems more "crude" will depend on one's experience and personal preferences. For myself, I find typeless languages like LiveCode unusually productive over the tedium of counting bits and manually managing memory. And don't even get me started about the millions of hours lost every year to bugs stemming from the difference between "=" and "==" in so many lower-level languages.

Lack of documentation or rather not able to find docs that teach the language itself. As opposed to hundreds if not more tutorials on learning java and objective-c

Like most proprietary languages, LiveCode doesn't have nearly the breadth of learning resources available for Python, C, and other open source languages.

But what it does have isn't bad:

The User Guide has 378 pages, the Dictionary has more than 3,000 entries, and earlier posts here have pointed you to the online Lessons, Script Conferences and the tutorials included in the package which collectively add another few hundreds pages of learning material. There are also dozens of web sites with even more tutorials, examples, and other learning materials.

If you've read through all that and still have trouble getting the basics, LiveCode may not be the language for you.

But then again, if you've read all that you'd be the first person I've met to have done so. That's a lot of material, and most folks become productive with the language long before completing a fraction of all that.

LiveCode is indeed a very unusual language and IDE, and it may not be everyone's favorite. But those who like it do so because of the equally unusual productivity it offers once you get past the basics. Warts and all (every language and IDE has 'em), LiveCode is for many people a pretty useful tool.

You write as though you've pretty much already made up your mind, and that's fine, everyone should use whatever tools work best for them.

If you have any specific questions as you work through the tutorials, I'll be happy to help if I can.

Posted: **Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:05 pm**

cylent,

You and I sound like we have something in common. We are both technically highly proficient, but programming newbies and we are both new to LiveCode. You have a few weeks under your belt, I have a few days.

With that in mind here is my perspective:

1. If you are not a programmer already, there is little to no chance that you will tackle Java or Objective-C. You have to be honest with yourself. If you were going to go down that road, you would already have. There is nothing wrong with that. Just be okay with it.

2. There is no silver bullet in life in general. There are pros and cons to absolutely everything. The cost of LiveCode is also a con for me, but I see the cost as a business expense which I will offset with my first project. Without this tool, I would not be able to provide the service of creating mobile or desktop apps to clients. That is the reality of the situation. The other alternative would be to outsource everything, but then you need funds to be able to do that.

3. Here is a quote from an American millionaire: You don't have to get it right, you just have to get it going. LiveCode allows you to get it going, without necessarily getting it right. If your application is a success and you are making money, you can then outsource the redevelopment of the application to make it better, faster and perfectly native.

My suggestion is similar to what has been said in this thread: Take it month to month, make money from your first business apps and then buy a license once you have made money from LiveCode.

Kind regards
Hylton

Posted: **Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:49 pm**

so at this point this thread has grown considerably.
its not turning into an argument i hope ... i am merely trying to make the correct decision.

i believe my points are valid by pointing out some obvious things.
yes learning objective-c is a whore on its own and java ... lets not go there. i've never liked java to start with. i am not sure why google based their OS on java... its slow, sluggish and will always remain a cpu/memory hog ... thats my opinion.

at this time i really really really want to learn to code in LC. I would love it if someone were to point me to a simple step by step beginners tutorial on the code...
believe it or not but this makes no sense to me. "numberPressed the label of me" .... what the hell is "the label of me"? who is "me"? why am i in there?
crap like that makes me mad because i cant understand for the life of me the meaning of what that line is supposed to be/mean!

heck i dont even understand how to get into ... for example ... the area to put the code in for when the "Stack" application loads.
Is it me or is the user interface so counter-intuitive ? and why not call it a "Freaking Window"? whats this terming like "stack" and "card"?

I have downloaded the user manual which is 383 pages and still refers to LC as Revolution. Shows how old it is. Thats fine. i'll go through it if it makes any sense!

every book or pdf file shows you code but it does not go into what the code means. they just say type this and move on ... no explanation, no reason!

in reference to the dictionary. yes its great to have in the program (LC) but i am not sure how to use its "functions" ...

and this is why i said even though Objective-C is difficult at least theres 1000's of tutorials.

i am just madly frustrated. i want to learn but dont know how... again. need to understand the code...

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