LiveCode vs. Web Dev Tools

[steven.pribilinskiyBUSI3SL]

still in doubt what to choose as the main development environment
LiveCode is very alluring, but it's not free (I received 4-5 times invitations to buy the Gold account for 500$ !)

HTML5 + JavaScript + CoffeeScript + Live Coding IDE + many many frameworks are free
vs.
LiveCode is $$$, LC Education is $$$, LC Plug-ins is $$$

here's my personal research in the field of free web technologies:
It was a pleasure to learn JavaScript at Codecademy, and it's free
then you can use CoffeeScript to write cleaner LiveCode-like code, free
many JavaScript Frameworks are available for free
comparison of frameworks on a ToDo app
with PhoneGap it's a completely cross-platform environment

just to take a sip of CoffeeScript, here's a demo of an interesting little game engine
a lot of HTML5 demos are online, just Google
some slides

many IDE's are available for CoffeeScript:
JetBrains WebStorm - Live Coding, Real-time Live Code of HTML,CSS,JS
SublimeText2 - Refresh after saving
Adobe Brackets - CSS Live Code, HTML and JS after saving
JS Bin - online IDE - HTML,CSS, JavaScript Live Live Code

in these IDEs, Live Code means really Live Coding, it's not the misunderstood overhyped RunRev LiveCode IDE

regarding development speed, here's a demo of a ToDo app done in about 10 minutes
you have the choice to write HTML with Zen Coding or by using some HTML Template language, like Jade or Sweet

to make the app look like native app, there's a PhoneGap tool, however that one is not free, 10$/month
and it's not limited to Android and iOS, here's the list of supported platforms:
Android, Blackberry, iOS, Symbian, WebOS, Windows Phone, Windows 8, Bada, Tizen
PhoneGap features at Wikipedia

TideSDK can be used to deploy an app written in HTML5,CSS3,JS,Python,PHP,Ruby to a
native Windows, MacOS or Linux Desktop app.

so, is it worth to learn LiveCode and pay hundreds annually?
every day some new web technologies emerging and the community is just HUGE

[dunbarx]

Yes. It worth paying for and learning LiveCode.

Craig Newman

[codemonster]

What's your time worth? Are you doing this as a professional or a hobbyist? If you can easily navigate all those frameworks and APIs and have the time to learn all of them proficiently then it may serve you well to go the coffee script route.

Don't get caught up in the tech. Figure out what you are trying to accomplish and when you need to ship then find the technology that matches your requirements. It could be, that PhoneGap is all you need or any one of the various other technologies you've included in the links.

For me, LC has accelerated my development to hours that in other platforms would have taken days/weeks.

[FourthWorld]

Nothing is free; everything has a learning curve.

JavaScript is great, and as the only scripting engine embedded in every browser it's essential for modern Web development. A great many native mobile apps could just as well be done as Web apps, without the expense of platform-specific development and without the 30% app store tax; if I were doing mobile development exclusively, I might use JavaScript even more often.

But for all the impressive growth rates for mobile, they're just that - growth rates, not installed base. It'll be a several years before tablets overtake PC sales, and by that time the next form factor will likely be here to begin the transition away from them. And even when they peak, I doubt they'll have anywhere near the installed base of PCs.

Phones are the computer you take with you; PCs are where real work gets done; tablets are third device for most, neither as powerful as a PC nor as portable as a phone. The "post PC" thang is just a marketing slogan by a company looking to hold onto the only category it has a majority market share in. In the broad view, mobile devices compliment PCs, not replace them.

Many devs are distracted by this current focus on mobile to the point of exclusivity, but for those of us who've been in the software business for a while it's just another form factor - and LiveCode covers the biggest platforms on both sides.

The mobile-only space is crowded, with a very long tail. Half of all iOS App Store revenue is earned by just 25 devs, with most of the rest earned by the others in the top 1000. The other 599,000 apps are earning between minimum wage and zero.

Most mobile shops don't have either the experience, tools, or interest to deploy to the desktop, where most productivity computing still takes place.

And this is where LiveCode shines:

My clients shipping desktop apps make many times more revenue than most mobile shops. For them, mobile is an "also", not an "instead of", with mobile offerings that compliment desktop apps for multiple sales across device types.

With LiveCode, we can reuse code on the desktop, mobile, and even on servers. One toolkit, all platforms.

I imagine there are other tools with similar coverage. But I keep looking for one that handles as many platforms as LiveCode with better productivity, and I haven't found it yet.

[steven.pribilinskiyBUSI3SL]

My livecode trial period is ended
If I could make an agreement with runrev to pay license only after making some profit, I would be glad to share the revenue.
But I need many months to turn my vision into a reality, into a cross-platform app, and I am not ready to pay license fees, because I am not sure that the project will return on investment.
Also I'm not sure that some parts of the planned features can be done in livecode without creating add-ons.
And I can't buy insanely priced addons like the 100$ Icons pack

Web technologies are free to try and to use and there are no risks, and if you'll try Google, then you may find Icons for free too

[FourthWorld]

...and if you'll try Google, then you may find Icons for free too

I use a lot of icons in my apps, and I've never purchased any from LiveCode. Not sure where you got the idea that only the icons RunRev offers can be used in LiveCode, but really any image will do.

But take note of the license terms for any you find on the Web. The trick is finding good ones which aren't licensed under GPL, which of course can only be used in apps also licensed under GPL. There are some good ones with more liberal licensing terms if you look hard enough, and with a good graphics tool like GIMP or Photoshop you can roll your own (which is what we usually do since our needs are often somewhat specialized).

As for LiveCode itself, while it costs a fraction of similar tools like Flash or Toolbook and covers more platforms, if the price is an issue and JavaScript will do what you need, there's hardly any mistake in learning JavaScript. You can always pick up LiveCode again later on as your needs or other circumstances change.

[steven.pribilinskiyBUSI3SL]

in the software business for a while it's just another form factor - and LiveCode covers the biggest platforms on both sides.

not natively, not included in livecode IDE, you have to buy externals, i.e. MobGUI for 50$, DatePicker for 80$, SQL for 200$, Animation engine 80$, ...
in contrast, web techs are completely Free.
and there's no option to deploy apps to Windows 8, while you can do it already with JavaScript, with same codebase
I can't deploy to iOS from Windows PC, I know it depends on the Apple binaries
if the app is written in JS, you can use TideSDK Virtual machines to deploy to MacOSX, Windows 7 and for Linux

The mobile-only space is crowded, with a very long tail. 599,000 apps are earning between minimum wage and zero.

that doesn't depend on development tools

My clients shipping desktop apps make many times more revenue than most mobile shops.

that also doesn't depend on the development tools
I was started the thread to discuss whether it is profitable to use livecode as the main tool

The "post PC" thang is just a marketing slogan by a company looking to hold onto the only category it has a majority market share in. In the broad view, mobile devices compliment PCs, not replace them.

hmm
check autodesk homestyler, adobe photoshop, ms office, gooogle apps, weVideo, etc. cloud-based apps, and every day new ones are popping
they work both on tablets and desktop too


html5-js is totally cross-platform
it can be both mobile (PhoneGap) and desktop apps (TideSDK)
it's "code once deploy everywhere", responsive web design
many frameworks available to deal with various screen sizes and pixel-resolutions (incl. Retina)
as you said "reuse code on the desktop, mobile, and even on servers. One toolkit, all platforms."
and you don't need to deploy separately to iOS and Android, you don't must have iMac to deplay to iOS
it's enough to test in a Browser and code in a real Live Coding environment
all this for free
Web technologies aren't depend on tablet/pc
furthermore, you can easily layout your UI onto a refrigerator-sized monitor by changing some CSS-code
it's future ready, livecode is not

As for LiveCode itself, while it costs a fraction of similar tools like Flash or Toolbook and covers more platforms, if the price is an issue and JavaScript will do what you need, there's hardly any mistake in learning JavaScript. You can always pick up LiveCode again

too much hype around LiveCode product, it's a 20+ years technology, the IDE evolves in snail steps, the IDE is horrible, you have to put GLX2 to get autocompletion, Web deployment is also horrible, it feels like RunRev works hard on marketing the product, but not the product itself

[paul_gr]

too much hype around LiveCode product, it's a 20+ years technology, the IDE evolves in snail steps, the IDE is horrible, you have to put GLX2 to get autocompletion, Web deployment is also horrible, it feels like RunRev works hard on marketing the product, but not the product itself

OK we get it. You don't like Livecode. None of your 18 posts has anything positive to say about Livecode. So why are you still here?

Paul

[doc]

too much hype around LiveCode product, it's a 20+ years technology, the IDE evolves in snail steps, the IDE is horrible, you have to put GLX2 to get autocompletion, Web deployment is also horrible, it feels like RunRev works hard on marketing the product, but not the product itself

All of those conclusions based on a 30 day trial period...? ...and posting such on a forum where you've made a total of 18 posts hardly none of which have to do with any particular coding problem? Ridiculous.

Why do you bother starting a thread, posting such nonsense such as you have... especially here on a support forum made up of folks that have already become convinced of the great value of the LiveCode platform?

Seems to me that you are wasting our time and yours, so good luck with the "other" stuff.

-Doc-

[doc]

..you beat me to it, Paul.

[FourthWorld]

in the software business for a while it's just another form factor - and LiveCode covers the biggest platforms on both sides.

not natively, not included in livecode IDE, you have to buy externals, i.e. MobGUI for 50$, DatePicker for 80$, SQL for 200$, Animation engine 80$, ...

You seem to have your mind pretty well set on not using LiveCode so this is more for the other forum members who may come across this thread, but to be clear, those other add-on tools are not required to make mobile apps in LiveCode.

They provide specialized capabilities in convenient libraries, but there's nothing those tools do that can't be done in LiveCode natively.

After all, they were written in LiveCode.

...and there's no option to deploy apps to Windows 8, while you can do it already with JavaScript, with same codebase

Windows RT for ARM-based tablets is the only edition of Windows that LiveCode doesn't currently deploy to. x86-based Win systems remain supported, and you can even run LiveCode apps on x86-based tablets powered by Ubuntu. I've not heard a release date for an ARM compile of the LiveCode engines for Win and Linux, but it seems an obvious step going forward.

For the relatively simple apps Microsoft's JavaScript-base API is designed for, it's a great thing. But notice that they don't write Excel in JavaScript.

The world has many languages, each with its respective strengths and weaknesses. None is perfect, and all fall short in one area or another, which is why there are so many to choose from.

When choosing one, it can be helpful to spend some time in the forums for each tool. For example, the TideSDK support site has some helpful discussion about issues people have been having with it, much as you'll find with any tool:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/tidesdk

One of the questions I found there was about code obfuscation. Does TideSDK leave all your JavaScript exposed as browsers do, or is there some means of protecting code?

I can't deploy to iOS from Windows PC, I know it depends on the Apple binaries
if the app is written in JS, you can use TideSDK Virtual machines to deploy to MacOSX, Windows 7 and for Linux

That's an Apple issue, not a LiveCode issue.

iOS apps need to run through Apple's iOS SDK, which only runs on OS X. Apple's EULA for OS X forbids using it on anything other than an "Apple branded computer".

If the TideSDK can sign a Mac or iOS app from Windows, I'd be interested to see how this is done. That may be why their screen shots are all on Mac. I didn't spend much time there, but I didn't find where it said it can sign Mac and iOS apps from Windows or Linux.

The mobile-only space is crowded, with a very long tail. 599,000 apps are earning between minimum wage and zero.

that doesn't depend on development tools

My clients shipping desktop apps make many times more revenue than most mobile shops.

that also doesn't depend on the development tools
I was started the thread to discuss whether it is profitable to use livecode as the main tool

My apologies for not making that point more clearly. My aim there was to show that the most profitable opportunities in software come from a mix of mobile and desktop, something most JavaScript-based tools don't do well. In all fairness I suppose some might, but the 20-year proven history of LiveCode on the desktop, which you characterize as a point against it, is actually quite valuable for professionals who rely on it.

TideSDK may be a good example here: if tablets are a suitable replacement for PCs, can you do all your development and deployment with it on a tablet?

The "post PC" thang is just a marketing slogan by a company looking to hold onto the only category it has a majority market share in. In the broad view, mobile devices compliment PCs, not replace them.

hmm
check autodesk homestyler, adobe photoshop, ms office, gooogle apps, weVideo, etc. cloud-based apps, and every day new ones are popping
they work both on tablets and desktop too

Not quite. There are many good Web apps around, and indeed MS Office, Adobe Photoshop, and other serious workhorses provide mobile versions as well. But Google Docs is rarely used as an enterprise replacement for MS Office, and note that MS and Adobe haven't stopped making their desktop apps. Indeed, they're able to get a much higher price for them because they do much more.

The cloud version of Photoshop is fun and useful, but I don't think you'll find many professionals who've given up their desktop versions for it.

too much hype around LiveCode product

Well, in all fairness you've chosen to do your evangelizing of alternatives in a LiveCode forum, so it shouldn't be surprising that you'll find some LiveCode fans here.

If you go to other forums you'll find people who like those too.

I've used a great many IDEs over the years, and I haven't found a perfect one yet. LiveCode has many things I don't like, as does Eclipse, Flash, and just about everything else I've used.

If there was one toolkit that did everything perfectly no one would bother making anything else. But instead what we see is an ever growing diversity of languages and IDEs.

Find one you like, and enjoy it.

I've already said that I believe JavaScript is an essential language and well worth learning. I see little point in arguing about it.

If you find a place in your toolkit for LiveCode later on, I'll be happy to help with any LiveCode questions you may have.

In the meantime, enjoy JavaScript. If you're not already a subscriber, fellow LiveCoder Andre Garzia turned me on to the JavaScript Weekly, well worth subscribing to:
http://javascriptweekly.com/

[Slim]

Classic example of a troll, if no one feeds it, it should slink away.

[FourthWorld]

Classic example of a troll, if no one feeds it, it should slink away.

While his posts may seem somewhat trollish, I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes people just write in a way that sounds like they're in a bad mood, but at least some of his questions have seemed earnest enough to merit answering.

Hopefully either his posts will return to something related to LiveCode, or he'll be happily coding away with some other tool and we needn't worry about it here.

[Slim]

While his posts may seem somewhat trollish, I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt...

You're quite right. Perhaps it was the crazy formatting of the original post that made me lose my good manners. Thanks for keeping an even keel for the rest of us to follow!

[FourthWorld]

While his posts may seem somewhat trollish, I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt...

You're quite right. Perhaps it was the crazy formatting of the original post that made me lose my good manners.

Yep, I had the same reaction. At first glance it had all the superficial earmarks of serious spam and I was initially inclined to delete it, but after I went through it I came to realize it was just youthful enthusiasm.

Some forums have a rule in which posters can't use HTML/markdown until they've made a certain number of posts, as a way of filtering both spam and poor taste. I'm not sure I would advocate that here, but if we see a lot of unreadably mixed-style posts advertising competing tools I might suggest it.

I have no problem with discussing alternatives here; on the contrary, I think it's healthy, and of interest to even the most serious LiveCode devs since tools have a way of positively influencing each other so we all benefit no matter which one we use.

But it's definitely more productive to engage in such conversations with a professional tone. Coming into someone else's home and only griping about the cooking makes for an unpleasant dinner party. Like any tool, LiveCode has its shortcomings and Kevin Miller would be the first to say it's not the perfect tool for every job. But there are ways of discussing a tool's limitations which aren't unnecessarily provocative.