LiveCode Forums.

Desperately trying to find what I first looked for weeks ago -Competent Tutorials that DO NOT assume that you know it! So I have been turning to the only source of beginners material that is related to LC - Hypercard and as I understand it back in the early 80's no knowledge was assumed therefore the text books were written for beginners to learn the concepts and engines and structures and formats. With well explained examples of codes and comparisons with disadvantages and advantages of using same code for two different objectives. I have seen books like this for java and pearl, but what is the point in that? So I need to go back 35 years to get this information and I have discovered much about hypercard but it's not all brilliant, many publishers seem to be just jumping on the bad wagon as they do today everywhere.

Eventually I found this: written by fourthworld and wondered if he ever did get a reply?

""""""In my experience working with newcomers to LiveCode with little or no background in HyperCard, the value of using HyperCard books is mixed: while Goodman and others do a great job of introducing many core language concepts, many implementations of those concepts are either difficult to figure out how to achieve in the very different LiveCode IDE, or no longer a good solution given LC's deeper object model and broader language options.

So in an attempt to resolve that I dropped a note to Mr. Goodman asking him if he might consider writing a book on LiveCode.

I'll keep you posted if I hear back from him."""""""

If not then I would appreciate recommendations from people about Hypercard books that they feel I would benefit from.

Thankyou.
Kind Regards
chris

Hi Chris,

Danny Goodman used to have direct contacts with the HyperCard team at the time. Perhaps that was a reason why he wrote one of the best sold computer-related books ever

You can send an e-mail to dannyg@dannyg.com and make sure that you include the string typewriter_roller in the message to get around his spam filters (so his website says). Just ask him if he wants to write a book about LiveCode.

Did you have a look at my book?

Kind regards,

Mark

Hi Mark, I do not think that someone like me, no experience, no reputation and no programming CV would have any impact on Danny Goodman. It would take the LC team themselves to convince him about whether or not this would be worth his time or effort and whether the rewards for him would be satisfying, if you know what I mean.

Yes I found your book many weeks ago. And since you have mentioned it directly I have always had two concerns:
1. Whenever I do buy a book from the web, (and I think a lot of people do this), one needs to look inside. Now I know you provide the first 15 pages, but often on amazon and a few other places, looking inside usually means the index of chapters which you do, the last pages, but most importantly 5 or 10 or 20 random pages (depending on the size of the book), form the middle sections. It is here that one gets a feel for the style of writing, the way the information is presented, the delivery tone and most importantly the level or kind of language, the vehicle of tone that the author uses in delivering the instructions/lectures/teaching.

2. I am not going to benefit from a book that lays out code and examples and describes what it does (LC teachings and PDF's have these). I need to know why and the logic/system/concept behind the reasoning (which of course one benefits from in a classroom or a tutor or a video lecture).

So this is why I have put off (not said No) but put off buying this particular book, reason number 2 I can not evaluate because I can not see enough random selections of your writings.
I have seen that Danny Goodmans book chapter 3 seems to be the one to read. I have also found a couple of remarkable websites on Hypercard that actually teach the principles of what is behind code. But this obviously is not the ideal, but it is all I have.

If you are willing? to perhaps allow me to see a few random pages about how you lay out your teachings and demonstrations then this may convince me to buy your book - please remember it is not about how good or poor an author you might be, it is about how we learn, each individual has a slightly different way to assimilate and comprehend information. I think that some of the best books ever written had this in mind when the series".....This or that for dummies" was published. One of the first concepts I learned when starting technical authorship was to avoid pompous writing that elevate the author's knowledge rather than condescend to simplicity for the target audience. This is why the dummy books are so popular.

Anyway I have not said No. I did not realize Hypercard still has a loyal following and is active. I read some websites that said it was dead, and then I found it alive again in 2008? Funny subject this is.

Kind Regards
Chris

Hi Chris,

I don't see why wou wouldn't write to Danny Goodman. The more people ask him to write a book, the bigger chances are that he will. Perhaps, writing to RunRev support with the same request is also a good idea.

I'll consider including different pages of the book in the sample. I need to find some time for this.

Chapter 3 of Danny's book is about linking and printing. Part III is about programming with HyperTalk and I think that's what you mean. My book is somewhat similar to part III of Danny's book. My book focuses on programming, much like that part III, but my book gives more examples and background.

For example, I try to make the reasoning behind local and global variables and constants acceptable to the reader, because I realise that this can be quite a tricky subject. Goodman keeps it simpler, but also provides less background information and explanations. If you are already familiar with the LiveCode interface but want to understand more about programming, then my book is for you. Otherwise, you might want to start with the first few chapters of the LiveCode user manual.

For me, HyperCard is quite alive. I still run a licensing system on it, for software that I created with LiveCode. I still use HyperCard for quick and dirty solutions. Also, I am a true fan of Mac OS 9 and earlier.

Kind regards,

Mark

I'll see if I can't throw in your book into a christmas wish list then, I'll have another look at your website and review things again. As for the beginners LC pdf, Mmm, that is really geared up for those who already understand an apprecaible amount of programmable concepts - it assumes you know things, and it is what I don't know that I don't know that I need to know , I have read through that book about 70% from beginning, even when I have tried to use it as a reference it lost me. That says enough I think, it is a great resource as is this forum and mush else that I have tried to read. But it is what I am unfamiliar with that prevents me form being able to take advantage of all these resources which is why I need to adopt a slightly different strategy/approach while at the same time continuing with the practical exercise of trying to blow up a submarine only once (yep still can't put that one away yet, it keeps falling off the shelf).

Kind regards
chris

Hi Chris,

Thanks for digging into this subject. We all need a good, comprehensive tutorial in LC.

keram

Hi Chris,

The beginners guide on the website is too chaotic for real beginners. As a beginner, you don't know what to look for and the website doesn't tell you where to go first.

Beats me why LiveCode has hidden this, but we used to be able to open a PDF from the Help menu. This PDF contains the LiveCode user guide. It is probably the most important source for anyone who has just downloaded LiveCode and wants to learn how to use it. Hence user guide

If you're on Windows, look at C:\Program Files (x86)\RunRev\LiveCode Community 6.x.x\Documentation\pdf. On Mac OS X, you'll find it in /Applications/LiveCode Community 6.x.x.app/Contents/Tools/Documentation/pdf/LiveCode User Guide.pdf (right-click on the application package and choose Show Package from the contextual popup menu).

Just in case you didn't know about it.

Kind regards,

Mark

The User Guide has been moved to the Resources section, which is accessed from an icon in the toolbar. Many of us have wondered why RR moved it from the Help menu, which is the first place users are likely to look for the manual. At any rate, it's still available.

A good online course is at <http://livecode.byu.edu/indexgeneric.php>, but I think you (Chris) already have that link.

Hallo folks. I actually meant the beginner's user guide pdf. Not anything on the website. I have that downloaded and refer to it often without a lot of success. But that is not the fault of the pdf, I know, it simply is not for absolute beginners, just for beginners to the LC environment. It helps a little to read it but I am often unable to solve a problem by referring to it or any of the resources, again, not blaming the resources, they are for those who are not absolutely new to programming. It's the same with photoshop and adobe bridge. I have no knowledge at all about lightroom or gimp. yet it would be so easy for me to learn these two programmes by simple virtue of the fact that I know what to expect, what to look for, how to know what should be where, and how to ask the right questions. unless one is in a classroom with a tutor, one needs an in depth text book for beginners, but as I can well understand, maybe LC is too young at this stage to have the resources and popularity to warrant such a project, and that is also understandable. But it means I post an unusually large number of questions on the forum, which I am not always happy about, but then, I am committed to cracking this, because I want to and I will, hopefully, enjoy the rewards one day, and then I might write a book But I see an opportunity where I live to introduce people to a whole new programming experience that does not have the "that's way too high for me" feeling that programming in general ellicits when one mentions the word. Before LC I would never have attempted programming even though I considered it once or twice, so if LC got me hooked by that feeling of "reachability", then I am sure it would get others hooked who would otherwise never consider programming as an option for them.

Anyway, how do I stop an action from repeating itself when one can not use the repeat control structure in the first place? Riddle of the week for me. repeatCount only works with GIF animation images, repeatRate is simply milliseconds between updates, so this will not stop anything. Quit would be nice but that will put an end to the whole application, is there any keyword or command that will stop an action from repeating itself time and time again? Like for example, after 1 cycle stop updating? my pseudocode

just an afterthought
Kind regards
chris ( do I twitter too much)?

Hi Chris,

Actually, I do blame the (creators of) the resources for the relatively impopular status of LiveCode. It seems to get better now, but the resources offered by RunRev are still too scattered and disorganised to make sense to the starting programmer.

If you don't mean the user manual, then what exactly do you mean? Do you have a link to that beginner's user guide which you downloaded?

What kind of action do you want to stop repeating itself?

Kind regards,

Mark

Hi Mark,
this goes to demonstrate how hidden it is. I can not find where I downloaded it from. It was the RunRev site, but hit me with a 1000 dollars and I could not find it (or should that be a 1000euros)? I can upload it to an FTP site, I looked at your website quick for an email address but could not find one, since I need to insert the receivers email address into the site. The pdf is 11mb too big for email, or if you prefer send me your skype name and I could quickly pass it on to you there my email is accessible in the contacts - ? if we get this sorted out I might detail that action that I want to sort out.
chris

Hi Chris,

Does the first page start with a big black rectangle with the LiveCode and RunRev logos? The LiveCode User Guide included in the LiveCode application package is also almost 11MB. I guess we all have been talking about the same file. The official name is User Guide, not Beginner's Guide, unless your document really has "Beginner's Guide" on the title page but I don't think so. I don't think you need to send it to me

Kind regards,

Mark

378 pages? Whoops, yes it does, I think we are talking about the same one Mark.

The answer to the other question is:

exit repeat

Hi Chris,

Yup, 378.

Mark