LiveCode Forums.

I would have to guess that either no one above remembers this gem from Scott Rossi, or that it wasn't seen by as many people as I thought ! Frankly, I think it is pretty damn near incredible.

** WARNING** the above link is to a download of tmNavigator, and it can be quite addictive to look at...

FWIW, I don't think there is any technical reason that you could *not* have a single window MDI style IDE for Lc. I haven't actually attempted to make one yet myself, but I think any incentive to make one would be small.

I am definitely not saying it should not be a choice, nor that it doesn't make sense to have one setup like that, after all, in the world of IDEs, Lc and Free Pascal + Lazarus are (to my knowledge) the only two out there that palette-ize the IDE (as Delphi did at one point before moving to the .net framework). Since I've used both setups for long periods, it isn't a big enough deal to me one way or the other for me to actually attempt putting in time to make it.

Mac, Linux, and Chrome OS offer separate desktops, which is effectively what you're looking for. I assume Windows does not?

Mac, Linux, and Chrome OS offer separate desktops

Wait a moment . . . Mac and Chrome OS DO.

Although, personally, the current way Mac implements separate desktops just gets on my nerves so I stick to a single one
spread across 3 monitors.

Linux does SOMETIMES . . .

Because that word 'Linux' gives a very false impression as 'Linux' is not a monolithic system
the way Mac and Chrome OS are.

I run Xubuntu (that's a fancy way of saying Ubuntu + the XFCE windowing manager) on a large number of machines, and, Yes,
it offers separate desktops, but how much of that capability is Linux (i.e. the kernel and some other twiddly bits), Ubuntu, or XFCE
I just don't know.

I fooled around with 'Linux' called Elementary OS a while ago, and could not for the life of me work out how to implement
several virtual desktops.

a single window MDI style IDE for LC

Well, Yes, of course, BUT . . .

Suppose you wanted to work on a stack that was the same size as your monitor . . .

Lost in Space with nowhere to go . . .
-

richmond62 wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:33 pm Lost in Space with nowhere to go . . .
-

Well, I've always suspected, but didn't want to say anything hee hee.

Really, if you haven't ever seen it, download that file I linked, but, if you have and still don't get how a single window IDE works, 2 things might help you visualize it.
1. the window your working on (the stack) is full size, in an MDI or single window IDE, you will see scrollbars as soon as it is larger than your working area.

2. alternately, you can do what the file I linked to does, allow for zooming in / out.

Frankly, I'm not sure why this is spoken about like no one else ever created a single window IDE, when in fact, the greater majority of IDEs are in fact just that, and even Delphi (7.x) allowed you to dock most palettes into a more monolithic work area, where only the working form was free floating. Well, until they switched over to the .Net framework, just before Borland sold it to ..um...whoever has it now haha.

SparkOut wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 8:34 pm I'm not sure I understand, but as I said, an approximation is to work with the backdrop turned on and palettes positioned as if docked inside the parent window. I am used to the LiveCode IDE and don't see a major need for change. But I am not sure "only one window" describes the situation well enough. "Only one containg window" maybe. If the backdrop were resizable and became the "containing window" with the menu bar docked across the top, and tools palette etc dockable within it that makes more sense. Already (on Windows anyway) if I double-click the title bar of a stack to maximise it in the IDE then it restricts itself to a limited portion of the screen. Perhaps better to compare the IDE with MS Word (or Libre Office Writer) and stacks being worked on as documents. You can resize/maximise/open/close documents within the bounds of the application.
No need to reinvent anything however.

it's probably less about the '1 window' and more about getting rid of multiple floating palettes.
I personally do not adore the interface of either Word or Libre Office and would not offer them up as paragons of interface design, but of course needs and tastes will differ; the former is kind of the anti-interface for me; the latter is stuck in the previous decade. But neither have a multitude of floating palettes which is what the LC IDE suffers from.

If i had a choice, i'd choose to present everything (ie, properties for stack, card, selectedObject, build settings, etc, etc) as a tabbed column on the right (not real tabs as such - icons really) -- much like Xcode. In Xcode a simple keystroke will show/hide the column so it's always there. In fact it provides both right (multiple properties, object library etc), left (documents, errors, organisational things like external media) and bottom panes (debugging info) that can be collapsed easily with a keystroke, in any combination so you can focus on what you're doing without multiple mouse clicks. It also provides split views so you have your interface one side and the code to work on the other.

I really do hate when i'm working on a card or object and want to look at stack properties and having to open yet another floating palette. And then you switch cards and you have to open another card properties palette and then need to have 2-3 palettes floating on top of your work space.

Many of you on this forum have been using LC for years and are no doubt immune to it's idiosyncrasies - but one could argue that's a bit like Stockholm syndrome. But the not infrequently the proliferation of floating palettes in my workspace is a source of irritation for me... I there are times where i would appreciate the split view (mind you mainly during debugging)...

It's not critical and LC have more immediate priorities with their limited staffing, but it is one of the things i'd like to see at some point. Even if it's turning the multiple palettes into 1 super-powered palette. And making it more like common IDEs will be more attractive to new users coming from other languages...

stam wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:01 am Many of you on this forum have been using LC for years and are no doubt immune to it's idiosyncrasies - but one could argue that's a bit like Stockholm syndrome. But the not infrequently the proliferation of floating palettes in my workspace is a source of irritation for me...

Not everyone lives in Stockholm. I'm in southern California...

I was in Stockholm once (about 34-odd years ago), but as I already had quite a collection of syndromes
I decided to give that one a pass.

the multiple palettes into 1 super-powered palette

Somewhere down the line (possibly with the release of LiveCode the 'thing' with floating palettes changed.

Before that if one had a props palette open for one object and one clicked on another object the props palette changed to
the props of the object just clicked on.

Now, while that may happen between similar objects, for stacks and cards one ends up with a plethora of
props palettes littering the screen, which can be a right pain in the bum.

FourthWorld wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:48 am Not everyone lives in Stockholm. I'm in southern California...

A great place to live!
And i do use your 4wDevo all the time - and recommend it (and arguably creating Devolution was a way to break out of the Stockholm syndrome )

But it doesn't really solve the issue with with multiple overlapping palettes; to be clear, yes, palettes do change with changing object selection - but card/script ones don't and i frequently find myself having to close individual palettes so i can see what i'm doing.

Also the option to see the code of the selected object (or stack, or card) in a split screen with the interface would be helpful too.

These things have been taken care of in big IDEs like Xcode and in MS Visual Studio and both are slick in their own way; just saying i'd like to see something similar in LC...

Hi,

stam wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:41 pmI personally don’t feel any need to be able to see other apps while I’m working on code and vice versa... so for me at least, being able to see other apps while I’m doing stuff in LC doesn’t make any sense.
Just curious how important that is for other users?

I'd get mad with a single IDE window. Reasons:

• What I always have open in the IDE: Menu, Tools palette, Application Browser, Message Box, one or two Script Editors. Often I add Message Watcher, Find & Replace, one or more Property Inspectors.
  Having all this in 1 window I'd need to go fullscreen on my main screen. And I HATE fullscreen.
  And even in fullscreen there's now way to have all of these IDE components open at all times, so I'd need to collapse those not in use atm - causing all elements to jump around, re-adjusting itselves, causing eye cancer & driving me nuts this way.
  .
• My projects nearly always consist of more than 1 stack, and usually I have at least 2 stack windows open. Plus "BvG Doku2" :) These I want to be able to bring to foreground quickly, so I can select the controls I want to work with. Atm these are visible (partially) between my IDE elements - a single IDE would hide 'em.
  Further I need the topLeft area of the desktop visible for files I create/ download during coding (or I'd need still another explorer window visible for this). So fullScreen is no option at all.
  .
• No, I cannot move these other windows to my 2nd screen - this one is already occupied by my textEditor(s), my SQL manager(s) & one or more browswer window(s) (to search in forum, stackOverFlow, wherever). I NEED those there.
  .
• No, I cannot add a 3rd screen - there's already one, connected to my 2nd machine that RDPs to customers, SSHs to server, or is used when I need to check another version of a stack that I have open already (you know it: "you cannot open this stack because a stack with the same name ...").
  .
• No, I cannot add a 4rth screen - just no place anymore :/

So, my 2 main screens are now full of all the stuff I work with. IDE components, stacks, explorer windows, helper programs. Quite some of it is partially hidden, but I can get anything to top with a click (or a mouseOver, if activated). All & anything keeps its size & location. :)
This just cannot be done with a single-window-IDE without wasting screen estate in huge & impractical amounts.
For sure, your habits & setup will differ. So if someone would find a way to implement it: Fine with me as long as I don't have to use it.

jacque wrote: Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:26 pmMac, Linux, and Chrome OS offer separate desktops, which is effectively what you're looking for. I assume Windows does not?

Windows has this, too, since years (Win7?).
But isn't it a rather clumsy workaround from the times when screen space & 2nd monitors were expensive? I tried it, but never could get used to the "full context switch". Well, I could imagine to send EMail & Messenger to a separate desktop, but I wouldn't want to divide up my coding environment.
Btw., even LC 9.6.2 rc3 Win-64 shows its palettes (tools, msg, ..., but not menu) on all desktops ;-)

Have fun!

But isn't it a rather clumsy workaround from the times when screen space & 2nd monitors were expensive?

Try one of the 'Richmond Recipes':

1. My bank manager phoned me 2 years ago and said,
"We're just chucking out some monitors as we're getting new ones, be round the back in 15 minutes."

2. Here in Bulgaria one can pick up second hand 1920 by 1080 monitors for "as much as" $20.

To my mind Virtual Desktops are quite useful when one is sitting on a train with a laptop or posing at a café.

Hi,

stam wrote: Sat Apr 10, 2021 7:41 pm I personally don’t feel any need to be able to see other apps while I’m working on code and vice versa...
so for me at least, being able to see other apps while I’m doing stuff in LC doesn’t make any sense.
Just curious how important that is for other users?

I'd get mad with a single IDE window. Reasons:
....

I'm always fascinated by how habits, preferences and logic can be so different in between us;
and I like it as I believe differences is what makes the world beautiful

Personnaly , I'm more on Stam side;
I have a 27' screen and using Mac Mission Control, I have one app by desktop.
I usually works with 7 desktops.

So when I code I code and find relevant and more productive
to avoid extra informations on screen.

My 2 cents,

Thierry

I tried virtual desktops and didn't like it. I don't use the LC backdrop either, so Stam would probably go crazy looking at my work environment.

All my app windows are carefully arranged so I can click over to them instantly from any other app. I bounce around all the time. I frequently need to access files from Finder during development, but also I need to see the files in Finder as I work. For example, when writing preference files, I want to see if they update while I trace through a handler. Finder let's me see the file date and, if text, the actual file content without me needing to bring Finder to the front. I do the same thing with BBEdit: I keep a log file open there and it updates every time the script adds to the log. I don't need to bring BBEdit to the front, I only need to position the window so I can see the content behind my work area.

I use a number of apps this way. I admit my desktop looks like a jumble of windows but it doesn't bother me. If I do want to remove some of the clutter, I can hide any app I'm not currently using.

I did try using my Chromebook as a second monitor once and I couldn't get used to that either. Old habits die hard.

stam wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:25 am

FourthWorld wrote: Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:48 am Not everyone lives in Stockholm. I'm in southern California...

A great place to live!
And i do use your 4wDevo all the time - and recommend it

Thank you.

(and arguably creating Devolution was a way to break out of the Stockholm syndrome )

Precisely. That was my only point, which I had hoped to make clear in the quoted portion.

But it doesn't really solve the issue with with multiple overlapping palettes; to be clear, yes, palettes do change with changing object selection

Precisely why I made no claim that it does, which I had hoped to make clear by not including it in the quoted portion.

I offered the screen shot of my clean custom work environment not to suggest devolution attempts to solve all possible problems, but merely as an example of how observing our own development habits and applying a little elbow grease can tailor even a cumbersome environment into something that returns to focus to our own work.

For me, given the breadth of things I do with objects, I need lots of tools for viewing the various aspects LC richly provides.

So the focus of devolution isn't about what tools I need, but expressing an awareness of when I need them.

Also the option to see the code of the selected object (or stack, or card) in a split screen with the interface would be helpful too.

Where would you like to see that displayed if not in a window? Scripts take a lot of screen real estate.

These things have been taken care of in big IDEs like Xcode and in MS Visual Studio and both are slick in their own way; just saying i'd like to see something similar in LC...

Those layout environments aren't running applications, merely drawing pictures of them; runtime occurs in a separate environment.

Whether the truly live coding that characterizes the xTalk Way is in any way better or even desirable is an open question.

But in an environment where you both make and run any number of your own windows, it's not a simple UI challenge to keep the IDE both available and out of the way.

Indeed, it may be the Ultimate Zen Challenge. I don't know. I just make what tools I need to improve my workflows, and move my focus back to my customers.

I'll offer this gem from SuperCard's creator Bill Appleton, when I asked him if he could sum up the differences between HyperCard (the Mother Tongue of xTalks) and his then-new SC - it applies to LiveCode even more than SC; indeed making custom authoring environments has been about half my career:

"HyperCard is a multimedia authoring environment. SuperCard is a tool you can use to build multimedia authoring environments."

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