LiveCode Forums.

Posted: **Sat Aug 17, 2024 7:12 pm**

Some of those will make Kevin & Co proud. Others not so much.

Well Kevin & Co. may also have to swallow their pride sometimes as fridges have to be filled, bills have to be paid, and so on.

I am sure they have done so many times before, if they had even bothered to inspect every standalone that has been churned out from LiveCode, which they haven't.

If I kicked out every child I did not really feel too good about in my language school I'd probably be down to about 40% of my numbers, I'd be extremely hungry, and so on.

This point seems a bit unnecessary.

Posted: **Sat Aug 17, 2024 8:55 pm**

LC has always required that apps give credit, it's in the license we agree to and specific wording is specified. The license also states that the creditation should be displayed in an About box or wherever else such info is placed in the app.

I have also always done this… here is an example:

Posted: **Sat Aug 17, 2024 11:05 pm**

As in many Internet agreements I never realized there was such requirement about "Required Copyright Notice"...shame on me!

Including the Notice in the About screen seems better than having badges across the APP.

Posted: **Sun Aug 18, 2024 10:15 am**

FourthWorld wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2024 6:35 pm But since the company branding will be most prominent in the apps with the least UX awareness and budget, at very least I trust we can agree it's not without some risk to the company.

That was a long post -I think I agree with it.
Basically "folkware" - often not great UI (or apps for that matter) is the crux of what you're writing about if I managed to digest your long post correct (apologies if I missed the point).

This isn't exclusive to livecode - there are a ton of apps available with terrible UI, written in other platforms. By and large it is as you say well-meaning hobbyists on their journey of learning. But I've seen plenty of commercial apps that look worse too.

To some extent, this is a function of accessibility. Free environments will attract more (eg openSource).
Paid licences will likely reduce the frequency of this as will be taken up more by commercial developers who are sensitive to UI/UX, but buggy and/or terrible UIs will not be eradicated with paid licences. Short of LC vetting every single app produced, which is not desirable or feasible, poorly functioning and bad looking apps, "folkware" or not, will continue to exist. What may help is LC providing much more built-in guidance for UI development from within the IDE as Create will hopefully do.

But as you say, slapping a brand on every card is not going to improve appearances, and risks associating LiveCode with poorly written apps.

Posted: **Sun Aug 18, 2024 10:44 am**

Randy Hengst wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2024 8:55 pm LC has always required that apps give credit, it's in the license we agree to and specific wording is specified. The license also states that the creditation should be displayed in an About box or wherever else such info is placed in the app.

You are partially correct, but it's not that obvious. I won't even dwell on the fact that a copyright notice is not the same as giving credit/attribution. The below is from the Licence Agreement in LiveCode 10 RC1.
You need to scroll right to the bottom of the Licence Agreement (which presumes you've read this long legal document), to Appendix A:

Code: Select all

APPENDIX A - Required Copyright Notice

You must include the following copyright notice where other such notices appear. In the event that such other notices do not appear in the Created Software, this notice must be placed in a reasonable location.

Built with LiveCode. Portions Copyright (C) 2000-2021 LiveCode Ltd, All Rights Reserved Worldwide.

In common with many other platforms the LiveCode Software uses open source software to deliver some functionality. You must also include the file "Open Source Licenses.txt" within any created software. This may be included within your About screen, as a file within the folder structure of a desktop app or in another accessible location.

We would like you to include the LiveCode Ltd logo, as per the terms set on our website. However, unlike the Copyright notices above, you are not required to include the logo.

This is not required in the about box or anywhere in the app. The requirement is to include the line:
Built with LiveCode. Portions Copyright (C) 2000-2021 LiveCode Ltd, All Rights Reserved Worldwide.
where your copyright notices appear.

This is further clarified in the appendix:

This may be included within your About screen, as a file within the folder structure of a desktop app or in another accessible location.

This means that if the developer provides a link that takes you to a website that shows the copyright notices, including LC's, there will be no indication in the app itself that it was built with LiveCode.
Not to mention the hundred of thousands that haven't read the licence agreement to its end, or the hundreds of thousands of freeware developers who don't display any kind of copyright notice.

If LC were keen for exposure (and they really should have done more on this with the community/opensource version), they should have created a series tasteful logos and badges of various kinds and provide them freely with the IDE (especially as a control in the IDE you could add to cards etc) for developers to include in their apps and websites.

"Made with" logos are common in other environments, but in LC the developer mostly needs to scrape their website for graphics and insert a line of legalese. This is not the same thing.

Posted: **Sun Aug 18, 2024 11:59 am**

trevix wrote: Sat Aug 17, 2024 5:38 pm I think that you pay 500$ anyway (it is "up" to 10.000$)

Errrm, that can't be right.

Consider the average price of software.
On mobile, the average price of an app is £0.79 on the app stores.
I asked chatGPT what the average price of desktop apps was (given that when googling this you often end up on sites that keep this behind a paywall):

chatGPT wrote:
Productivity Software: This includes office suites like Microsoft Office for Mac, which can range from $70 to $150 per year for a subscription, or $150 to $250 for a one-time purchase.

Creative Software: Creative tools like Adobe Photoshop or Final Cut Pro tend to be on the higher end. Adobe Creative Cloud, for instance, is a subscription service starting around $20 per month per app or $55 per month for the entire suite. Final Cut Pro is a one-time purchase of $299.99.

Utilities: Utilities like antivirus software or system optimization tools generally range from $20 to $100, depending on the features.

Games: The price for games varies widely, with many indie games priced between $10 and $30, while major titles can go up to $60 or more.

Specialized Software: Niche software, such as coding tools, 3D modeling, or professional video editing, can be quite expensive, often starting at $100 and going up to several thousand dollars for advanced versions.
Given these variations, the average price of desktop software could be estimated at around $50 to $100 if you consider a mix of these categories. However, this is a rough estimate, and prices can vary widely depending on the software's complexity and purpose.

The FAQ states that the royalty would be up to 5% and no more - but if there is a minimum sum of $500 required, that means for this to be 5% and assuming no one will pay more than $50 for my mediocre software, I would have to sell 10,000 copies of my software!

Clearly this is not right and the FAQ actually says:

What is an application payment?
This is a percentage of all of the revenue earned by your LiveCode Create built app. The amount charged varies according to how much revenue your app earns, but is never more than 5% of the app earnings.

I wasn't able t find a reference to your $500 figure - are you sure that's right?

Posted: **Sun Aug 18, 2024 12:51 pm**

stam wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2024 10:15 am But as you say, slapping a brand on every card is not going to improve appearances, and risks associating LiveCode with poorly written apps.

Yeah, that's it. The rest of the story is to encourage a habit thinking in terms of user journeys, and to illustrate higher-ROI opportunities available that cost less than even having a meeting and this one.

You're one of the supporters a platform wants to keep happy. A platform's most supportive and vocal users are gold, effectively an extension of sales and support staff that don't burn payroll.

On this your position is reasonable, and a more intrusive splash is of minimal value to the company anyway.

So like they say, "Just give 'em the pickle."

Soooooo many more effective ways to build branding where the company curates their own messaging to reflect exactly what they want, and to a more targeted, meaningful audience...

Posted: **Sun Aug 18, 2024 3:09 pm**

Where I have (rarely) in the past made a commercial sale of an app made with LiveCode (or RunRev) it was really a bespoke tool for a few hundred pounds. No volume of sales. I always complied with the copyright notice requirements in the About section of thd app.
For my free gizmos for the escape room, a "made with LiveCode" banner would not possibly fit with the immersive experience. I could go with a "closing credits" screen when the app is shut down. Although the only people to see would be staff at the end of shift, so largely irrelevant.
I think for an indy developer a badge like this could be detrimental to try and showcase things for expansion, even if not for sale. Prospective clients might view this "less professional" than a bespoke C++ or even Python offering, and reflect negatively.
I would prefer to let the app "wow" the client/prospect and when it comes to questions like "how could you do it in that time?/for that price?" *then* tell them about LiveCode and "you should buy a licence".

I haven't yet had chance to review the webinar or read everything but I still haven't heard anything about the scenario for LC Server. There a still a few sites I made some back end features for where the commercial version of LC Server is in use. I don't know what the long term licensing situation will be, either ongoing or for any new scenario.

Posted: **Sun Aug 18, 2024 4:15 pm**

contabilize

The term "contabilize" is not commonly used in English. However, it could be inferred as a verb form of the word "contabilización" in Spanish, which means "to account" or "to record financial transactions." Therefore, a general definition for "contabilize" could be: to systematically record and account for financial transactions in a structured manner.

Mmmm... sorry for assuming a nonexistent past participle for this verb. I imagine you write better in Italian than I do in English. A bit fussy, huh?

Posted: **Sun Aug 18, 2024 6:20 pm**

I have no Italian; although when I was a child I learnt a few phrases in Piedmontese.

But 'contabilize' is an Italian word dragged, screaming, into English, and I am quite sure, beyond bilinguals and those who got beyond De Bello Gallico at school, it will not be understood.

And, as a disclaimer: I got to about page 20 of De Bello Gallico so my Latin is "Cacca".

Posted: **Sun Aug 18, 2024 6:50 pm**

Back in the day (Dreamcard?) LC inserted a custom splash to show accreditation. I'd be okay with something like that and even support the same on shutdown.

I do agree that this may backfire sometimes. When I ran the HyperCard forum on AOL we received hundreds of poorly written submissions, many by children with stick figures and juvenile themes (I can't count the number of Kill Barney stacks we got.) We finally decided on a code phrase we added to the description to indicate that the submission was juvenile: "Contains simple line drawings." LC won't have that option.

I do wish I'd saved "Barney Gets Beheaded By a Ceiling Fan" though. It was adorable.

Posted: **Sun Aug 18, 2024 7:51 pm**

jacque wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2024 6:50 pm I do wish I'd saved "Barney Gets Beheaded By a Ceiling Fan" though. It was adorable.

Oh yes, that was fun.

Damn, Jacque, you may have killed my Sunday plans, as I'm now thinking about prowling the UMich archives to see if I can dig that up.

Posted: **Sun Aug 18, 2024 9:31 pm**

trevix wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2024 4:15 pm
contabilize

The term "contabilize" is not commonly used in English. However, it could be inferred as a verb form of the word "contabilización" in Spanish, which means "to account" or "to record financial transactions." Therefore, a general definition for "contabilize" could be: to systematically record and account for financial transactions in a structured manner.
Mmmm... sorry for assuming a nonexistent past participle for this verb. I imagine you write better in Italian than I do in English. A bit fussy, huh?

I just imagined you meant “cannibalise” and moved on… and yes you have a point.

Posted: **Sun Aug 18, 2024 9:44 pm**

FourthWorld wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2024 7:51 pm
jacque wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2024 6:50 pm I do wish I'd saved "Barney Gets Beheaded By a Ceiling Fan" though. It was adorable.
Oh yes, that was fun.

Damn, Jacque, you may have killed my Sunday plans, as I'm now thinking about prowling the UMich archives to see if I can dig that up.

If you find it I'd love a copy.

Posted: **Mon Aug 19, 2024 1:39 am**

Given unwanted items on a main screen can really upset the aesthetics of one’s design (a bit like Tv station logos always being on screen.)
Surely an acceptable way forward would be the inclusion of a credit page and perhaps a badge or logo on the splash screen.

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