Hello. New and can't find good baby steps

[Klaus]

...
- what's ...
- when ...
- how...

All this and even more answers can be found in the stack(s) at the URL that I already posted in this thread!

[bn]

Hi Cybernicus,

- what's the difference beteen "push button" and "default button" and "rectagle button"

as far as functionality is concerned there is no difference. The appearance is different.
the push button and the default button take on the style of the operating system. The push button is just a regular button, the default button is, well the default button, the one that is proposed as the default action. But beware, the default blue pulsating button uses up to 30 % of the processor for pulsating on the Mac. I tend to avoid it. The rectangle button is not changed according to the operating system, it is what you make of it across platforms.

- when is the "label" field used and is it much different than the "text entry field" to its right in the tools pallete.

The label field is used as a label for any object you like. What it displays is determined in the content pane of the property inspector. It is a regular text field with some properties turned off: focusable is off, lock text is on etc. have a look.

- in a drop down like the object inspector - "basic properties" can I conclude absolutely that there is no box by box documentastion of help anywhere and the only way to understand what values these require or imply is trial and observation?

well they are described at their respective places in the User Guide, they have a descriptive name and a tooltip that depending on your preference settings either shows the description of the property and the property itself in the tooltip or the other way around. In the preferences you set in General the top two radio buttons, either Description of options or Name of Livecode property. As I said the tooltip always shows the other option.

- I experimented a little with the "pull down menu" object. I see that there are "choices" and how to add some more. But how do you establish what those choices will trigger. Where would be the script for "choice 1" for instance?

if you open the script of a pulldown menu with choices 1, etc there is a on menupick pItemName handler preconfigured. Change the whole handler to:

Code: Select all

on menuPick pItemName
   switch pItemName
      case "choice 1"
         beep 1
         break
      case "choice 2"
         beep 2
         break
      case "choice 3"
         beep 3
         break
   end switch
end menuPick

it will then beep... Let there be beeps.
Please look up the switch structure in the dictionary.
You change the options choice 1 etc by changing "Text" in the properties inspector (remember, your friend by now) ->Basic properties.
You can also set the content of the pulldown menu by setting the text of button "myPullDownMenuButto" to a return delimited list of entries.

Kind regards

Bernd

[Cybernicus]

...
- what's ...
- when ...
- how...

All this and even more answers can be found in the stack(s) at the URL that I already posted in this thread!

I'm sure it could be found there if I had a few more weeks to keep trying to pick gnat shit out of black pepper like I've been trying here. But what you pointed me to is not a reference where I can find what I need when I need it. One of my questions was whether or not I can conclude that there is no box by box reference. An answer to that would have been a lot more helpful and courteous than your exclamation point-punctuated reply. Thanks anyway.

[Cybernicus]

Hi Cybernicus,

- what's the difference beteen "push button" and "default button" and "rectagle button"

as far as functionality is concerned there is no difference. The appearance is different.
the push button and the default button take on the style of the operating system. The push button is just a regular button, the default button is, well the default button, the one that is proposed as the default action. But beware, the default blue pulsating button uses up to 30 % of the processor for pulsating on the Mac. I tend to avoid it. The rectangle button is not changed according to the operating system, it is what you make of it across platforms.

- when is the "label" field used and is it much different than the "text entry field" to its right in the tools pallete.

The label field is used as a label for any object you like. What it displays is determined in the content pane of the property inspector. It is a regular text field with some properties turned off: focusable is off, lock text is on etc. have a look.

- in a drop down like the object inspector - "basic properties" can I conclude absolutely that there is no box by box documentastion of help anywhere and the only way to understand what values these require or imply is trial and observation?

well they are described at their respective places in the User Guide, they have a descriptive name and a tooltip that depending on your preference settings either shows the description of the property and the property itself in the tooltip or the other way around. In the preferences you set in General the top two radio buttons, either Description of options or Name of Livecode property. As I said the tooltip always shows the other option.

- I experimented a little with the "pull down menu" object. I see that there are "choices" and how to add some more. But how do you establish what those choices will trigger. Where would be the script for "choice 1" for instance?

if you open the script of a pulldown menu with choices 1, etc there is a on menupick pItemName handler preconfigured. Change the whole handler to:

Code: Select all

on menuPick pItemName
   switch pItemName
      case "choice 1"
         beep 1
         break
      case "choice 2"
         beep 2
         break
      case "choice 3"
         beep 3
         break
   end switch
end menuPick

it will then beep... Let there be beeps.
Please look up the switch structure in the dictionary.
You change the options choice 1 etc by changing "Text" in the properties inspector (remember, your friend by now) ->Basic properties.
You can also set the content of the pulldown menu by setting the text of button "myPullDownMenuButto" to a return delimited list of entries.

Kind regards

Bernd

Thanks Bernd. I appreciate the effort and this is very useful. I'm going to just keep piping up baby-step questions I get stumped by. I hope for answers and not comments! like the one I quoted from another poster above.

[Cybernicus]

....

- in a drop down like the object inspector - "basic properties" can I conclude absolutely that there is no box by box documentation of help anywhere and the only way to understand what values these require or imply is trial and observation?

well they are described at their respective places in the User Guide, they have a descriptive name and a tooltip that depending on your preference settings either shows the description of the property and the property itself in the tooltip or the other way around.

...Bernd

OK, there's a box for "Metal Texture" on the stack inspector screen. It's the first of a list of several boxes. I have loaded the "reference guide", typed in Metal Texture and the Acrobat reader found nothing in the documentation for that criterion in the user's guide. If you "hover" the mouse cursor over the Metal Texture box and it's title, the tool tip tells me what it already says on the screen, "metal". Do you see what I'm saying? This is what I have found true of every box in that list and I'm sure it's not just on the stack inspector screen. I think you should know that my occupation for several years was in writing manuals and teaching people how to use software applications. And, I have also worked with advanced CAD programs on the Windows platform in the building trades. I'm not at all new to computers and help and context-sensitive help and on-line help. Am I not seeing what my eyes tell me here?

I had already checked the preferences and I don't see that there is anything that I could activate that is turned off. How do people answer these questions? The BYU link to the LiveCode course was extremely helpful--more so than anything else I've encountered here yet. But even at that as I do the exercises it is apparent that what is covered is also aided by classroom instruction and it assumes knowledge not addressed anywhere in this programs or in the lacking "tutorials" I've seen so far. To be clear, some of those tutorials show how to do specific things that developer might want to use but none except "Hello World" lead a newbie headlong into facing each piece of functionality as it exists in the program. Can I take it that this is just how it is and if people happen to have clicked with this are just inside the secret society (figuratively) and everyone else is just summarily written off? This is not a rhetorical question--I beg a direct and categoric answer. I have 15 days left on my trial and have to decide if I'm going to pay up for this product. There's no employer buying this for me so the expense is considerable. Am I being clear about wanting a source of precise information on all of the tools and boxes in this software as is customarily the case with non-vertical applications? Thanks in advance. Jim

[bn]

Hi Cybernicus,

Well the documentation is what it is. Though it does help to read the User Guide. It is lacking as you noticed but does not seem to keep people to get started with Livecode. I too would like a better/more complete reference to all things in LIvecode but it is a daunting task for a relatively small company like Runrev to provide a 1000+ pages book that constantly has to be updated. I prefer they put their resources into improving/providing new features as they currently do with the mobile platform at a high pace. And once that settles and the user base grows I hope for a more complete documentation.

Actually your difficulties getting started make me wonder how people get into Livecode. Maybe someone with a more recent experience can chime in.

Can I take it that this is just how it is and if people happen to have clicked with this are just inside the secret society (figuratively) and everyone else is just summarily written off? This is not a rhetorical question--I beg a direct and categoric answer.

Come on Cybernicus, Livecode is not a sectarian movement, it is commercial software as you found out and the fact that more experienced users at times don't match their experience with the experience of the new users is not different from all the forums I have visited that deal with a complex language. Actually the atmosphere is a lot more understanding and helpful compared to other forums in this forum as well as on the use-list. After all these are all users of Livecode, it is not Runrev that answers here and there.
http://runtime-revolution.278305.n4.nab ... 78306.html
(searchable and quite a resource)

I have 15 days left on my trial and have to decide if I'm going to pay up for this product. There's no employer buying this for me so the expense is considerable.

Why don't you buy a personal license which is not that expensive and get used to Livecode and if you feel that it would be suitable for commercial development you just upgrade.

Am I being clear about wanting a source of precise information on all of the tools and boxes in this software as is customarily the case with non-vertical applications?

See above, unfortunately the market is not large enough for a third party stepping in and providing the Reference types you are looking for.

And yes, some experimentation/trial and error is needed in my opinion. That is what learning is.

I hope this is not too disapointing for you but consider that once you get into Livecode you have a quite versatile tool (not perfect but well suited for a lot of tasks) to develop software for different platforms with only little modification of your code.

Kind regards

Bernd

[Dixie]

Hey there Cybernicus...

I can understand your frustrations... but don't be too hard on 'the other poster' as you call him. I really think that you have been lucky to attract the attentions of Bernd and Klaus (the other poster, as you call him) as they are probably the two of the most patient and prolific members of this forum who respond to questions raised by new users... I don't think that there are many here who have not benefitted from advice and answers than they have given... myself included.

I read that you say you are no stranger to computers, that you are more than proficient in the use of CAD systems... that is to be commended, but when you employ these programs, you are 'using' them.. you are not building them... You now wish to build your own applications... that's great, and welcome to the forum ... but take it slowly all the cliches are about to come out 'Rome wasn't built...' and 'Walk before you run'.

Bernd's sugesstion that you read the 'User Guide' is a good one... using the dictionary (found under the 'Help' menu in LiveCode) to read about the details of the syntax that you are trying to employ, as you are working on your stacks, is also a good habit to get into.

Your plaintive cry for help

Once again, thanks. Can anyone point me to anything inside the program or what's on line to simply start programming buttons to go from one card to another in a stack? I'm not trying to be sarcastic. Something as simple as this is proving to be a saga. Thanks again.

is answered by looking in the lessons section of the LiveCode website. http://lessons.runrev.com/spaces/lesson ... -my-stack- Cybernicus, the help is there... just go look for it... and you will find that there is always someone on the forum who will offer a snippet of code or correct your syntax if you are stumped...

It seems that the people who come and have come to LiveCode after having had experience of other x-talk languages (hyperCard, superCard et al.) don't suffer from the initial steepness of the learning curve that others without that background suffer... but we have all had to go through it... I remember vividly trying to grapple with how LiveCode handles groups and backgrounds as opposed to hyperCard and superCard... but some reading and trial and error enabled me to see its logic... I would suggest that you introduce yourself to lots of trial and error, it helps an awful lot!

I hope you get over your 'initial' hurdle, because when you do you will see what a lovely development environment LiveCode is, enabling you to build very simple stacks to very complex applications ... and for more than one platform, with 99% of the one source of code.

Don't be too hard on those who are trying to help you... I see them post on this forum all the time and often marvel at their patient replies... the thought often crosses my mind as I read these replies that these chaps have a lot more patience than I would have.

be well,

Dixie

[Cybernicus]

Hey there Cybernicus...

....Don't be too hard on those who are trying to help you... I see them post on this forum all the time and often marvel at their patient replies... the thought often crosses my mind as I read these replies that these chaps have a lot more patience than I would have.

be well,

Dixie

I don't think I was hard at all. The "exclamation point" at the end of his "everything you want to know is in what I already told you!" was hard ON ME given my appeal just before that. I respectfully ASKED if it was OK to just keep throwing up these newbie questions on this thread because finding the answers I need in the context I need them is proving frustrating. I didn't need the insinuation--I need answers. And answers are not being referred back to the same flawed documentation that any half-wit would have gone over pretty well before even asking the embarrassing questions I've had to ask. I know how forums work and I know people want newbies to search for things before they ask rudimentary questions. I know people don't want to be "bothered" helping anyone out if they had to knock themselves out facing the same stupid problems. If the answers to my questions aren't forthcoming then I think a "poster" should just move on in polite reservation rather than "implying" that the help offered should be enough.

I guess I've found out what I need to know now.

- this program does not have customary help built in at all.
- its reference guide is not a true reference guide
- the company doesn't put a premium on users making it through the trial phase
- the software has flaws that should have long been fixed were the company interested in making this software a program for a wider user base
- the user has to somehow have innate knowledge of the evolution of Macintosh and Windows conventionalities to deduce the reason for redundancies like three different button types or a property designation like "Metal Texture". Surely there will be a lot more but they will reveal themselves through further impediments to learning momentum the user will encounter on his or her own
- the closet thing to finding out something on one's own other than pondering on it for as long as it takes is to use a search engine outside of the program or the forum to find information either mentioned in the forum or by other people in other forums about the software. It is expected that a user has unlimited time to just hit or miss like this
- the company expects a forum to serve as a help facility as if users have unlimited time
- one should not be apolitical an honest about what the shortfalls are because other experienced users with act defensively rather than agreeing or disputing the assertions a user makes
- the user community has only a few people who answer newbies questions
- of that user community there is at least one party who answers questions by implying that he answered your question by giving you access to a volume of information in which the answers may be hidden
- if you speak directly about how unhelpful such a remark is the user will then get lectured by someone else who thinks the user should trip over himself with gratitude

Great. To the folks I have gotten some real help and some real answers from I am extremely grateful but the bottom line is this is a dead end--an extremely disappointing one. I studied with Hypercard 22 years ago, ToolBook 20 years ago and almost nothing has happened in between then and now except accommodation of other technologies like the Internet, various media players, the I-phone et al. Nothing. And did I mention, nothing. Indeed it is even less easy than HyperCard and toolBook were and saying that inexperienced users can just learn this without help is assuming a great lot.

[dunbarx]

I will jump back in.

You are at the point of abandoning the best, most fun and powerful software tool since Hypercard. You are being very impatient. Learning this sort of stuff is a far greater task than learning Excel. As Dixie said, the reason is that it is a far richer world to explore and learn. The good news is that you can learn only what you need, compelled by the exigencies of your current tasks. I think you are trying to grab the whole thing at once. You cannot.

I will say it again. Build an address book on steroids. It will take you some time, you will be modestly proficient after you are done, and much of what you are frustrated with now will evaporate in about two months. You will then be addicted, and will no longer feel that the LC support environment is so hostile and sterile.

Or leave it. But you will not have given yourself a chance.

[jacque]

I think there's a bit of a cultural gap here. Cybernicus, not all the posters use English as their native language, and the fact that you couldn't tell makes it even harder to allow for that. I wouldn't take an exclamation point too seriously. I know the person and he isn't like you think.

Let me address a couple of other things. The User Guide is great for getting a general overview of how the software works and what it can do, but if you want details then you need to turn to the dictionary. You can open that from the icon on the toolbar. And that is where you will find all the bits you've been poking around for. Every entry in the object inspector is actually a property of the object, and every property is explained fully in its dictionary entry. So if you want to know just what that "metal" thing is, look up "metal" in the dictionary and there it is. Ditto for every other property in every pane of the inspector -- but a warning goes with that. You need to look up the LiveCode term, not the "layman's" term. I always advise new users to turn on native terminology in their preferences, because it's the fastest way to learn the language. But even if you want to keep the generic terminology as the default, you can still see the syntactical term by hovering over the setting in the inspector.

Buttons: in actuality there is only one single button type. There is also only one field type. There is one player object, one image object, and one graphic object. That's it. All the differences are due only to the properties you apply to the object. The difference between a push button and a radio button, or any other type, is only that one has certain properties enabled and the other does not.

To make it quicker and easier for users to place a particular kind of button on a card, the tool palette has several pre-configured buttons that are ready to go. Unfortunately this creates the impression (enforced by the property inspector) that buttons are different from each other somehow. They aren't. You can turn a radio button into a push button simply by changing its properties; if the properties aren't available in the inspector you can change them manually via the message box.

You can find out what all the button properties do and how they affect the behavior of the basic button object by looking them up in the dictionary. For example, if you set the "menumode" property of a button the button will display its contents as a menu. If you further refine the property settings, the menu will appear as a combo box, a pulldown menu (for menu bars), or any of a few other types, including a tabbed panel. You can read all about it in the dictionary if you look up "menumode".

Fields are similar. There is only one field object. You can turn on scrollbars, any number of text settings, and whether the field is editable or not. If it isn't editable (three properties are adjusted for that: the locktext, the autohilite, and the traversalOn) then it's usually used as a label -- a non-interactive field, for which LiveCode provides a shortcut object in its tool palette. Say you have a label placed on your card and you decide you want an editable field instead. Change those three properties and suddenly you've got a regular text field.

It's all in the property settings. And they're all documented in the dictionary. Another quick lookup tip is to select any of the items in the left-side list (probaby start with "button" in this case) and you will see all the properties that apply to that particular object. There are lots. You'll feel a bit lost. But the names are pretty well self-explanatory, so it works sometimes to just scan through the list and see what might apply to the task you want to do.

Finally, software flaws: sure. All software has flaws. But an awful lot of what I see going on in the forums and mailing list are presumed flaws that later turn out to be user error or misunderstandings about how LiveCode works. I won't lie and say it doesn't have a learning curve, and if you came from HyperCard as I did, it's even harder. You'll have some "unlearning" to do. It takes about six weeks. There are some differences that are necessary because HyperCard supported a single OS, and LiveCode supports eight or ten. So yes, you'll need to know something about those operating systems, even if it is only enough to know what you don't care to learn about. But that's the beauty of LiveCode. Once you get past this frustrating stage, you'll appreciate how one code base can run anywhere. It really can. It's pretty astounding.

Please don't feel you can't ask newbie questions. I feel very strongly about this. You can, you should, and I hope you continue. There is no question not worth asking, and those who follow later may find that you have asked something they very much want to know.

Give it a go.

[dunbarx]

Jacque.

That bit about base objects and their expansion into multiple variants ought to be a lesson in and of itself. I'm serious. Please post it to the lessons area.

Craig

[jacque]

Good idea about the lesson, though it isn't really a lesson, it's more of an explanation. I'll put it on my list of things to do once the conference is over. It's getting pretty busy right now.

[jharris]

Hey everyone,

I am a newbie also. I have tried the trial edition off and on for the past 2 years and never could get a good feel for LiveCode within the trial period. To me LiveCode is a major change from the languages I normally work with. I finally purchased a license about 8 weeks ago and decided no matter what, I am going to learn it. I only get to work with it a few hours a week but I am really amazed how much I have learned. The dictionary and the user guide is making more sense every time I use it. I've been working on a fixed assets app (my address book) and it is almost complete and I have learned a lot working through my needs for the project. I would suggest not getting frustrated and giving up to soon. It is a lot to learn, but it will all make sense given time.

[FourthWorld]

Hey everyone,

I am a newbie also. I have tried the trial edition off and on for the past 2 years and never could get a good feel for LiveCode within the trial period. To me LiveCode is a major change from the languages I normally work with. I finally purchased a license about 8 weeks ago and decided no matter what, I am going to learn it. I only get to work with it a few hours a week but I am really amazed how much I have learned. The dictionary and the user guide is making more sense every time I use it. I've been working on a fixed assets app (my address book) and it is almost complete and I have learned a lot working through my needs for the project. I would suggest not getting frustrated and giving up to soon. It is a lot to learn, but it will all make sense given time.

Nicely said. Glad you're enjoying it. LiveCode is definitely a unique way of working, but offers unique benefits to those willing to roll up their sleeves and dive in. Well done.

[Cybernicus]

Thanks for the effort you put into your post Jaque. Honestly I think what really caused my expression of frustration was a remark like the following excusing Runrev of doing at least the customary job of having a built-in context-sensitive help much less a "manual" that covers every field: "...but it is a daunting task for a relatively small company like Runrev to provide a 1000+ pages book that constantly has to be updated..." Perhaps the company wouldn't be so small if they just DID the proper job of building in the customary context-sensitive help that goes into Windows programs and spent some time making sure not to lose the many people who may not connect the dots with the flawed material it has up on the sight as "lessons" or "tutorials". I've produced those things myself and I don't buy the defensiveness at all. It's just plain poor business.

As I said I started with HyperCard and went to Asymentrix ToolBook circa 1990. RunRev has the same interface that both of those programs had. Indeed it mixes some of the Mac and Windows conventionalities. But for my experience, 20 years has gone by (I have not touched this kind of thing in that time) and there are a myriad of new technological opportunities to provide the knowledge and the leadership to help new users make it through the initial learning threshold in reasonable ergonomic time and low and behold, this 20 years has resulted in little to nothing in that regard given the potentials. I know, some will insist that it's all in the information they pointed to. I beg to differ--yes, it's all there, it's just not there in a way that communicates consistent reasoning that made a difference for me and I know I'm not stupid. I don't buy that it's because Runrev is a relatively small company and it's tough to keep updating their knowledge ware. They just for whatever reason haven't and don't. And I don't think users should think themselves so fortunate to merely have what they do. It's to their (users) great credit that they have made it through this shortfall. But I take it that they(users) are just being defensive because someone new to them seems to be taking shots at their beloved cow. That's not so. I've paid some dues too. I expect growth, change, evolution over time (two whole decades) and I don't mean in the program's guts or its ability to accommodate multiple platforms or I-phones or media players. I mean in the KNOWLEDGE-WARE, help functions, Internet materials, and in the interface design itself where redundancies stand out there to confuse the newcomer and cause a person to have to float questions on a forum and hope the answers come. That's not good enough and it is not economically sound at all. I'm totally sorry if this strait forward honesty disturbs anyone. But the Emperor seems to be wearing no clothes and I'm not one to say he's (Runrev) dressed just because that's what everyone else does. RunRev is likely a small company because of its assumptions and its neglects. I guaranty you--GUARANTY you--that a change in priorities to address knowledge will change the numbers of people who register during the trial dramatically. And you an I know that writing a few stacks that take people proactively into the decision matrices they'll face to overcome orientation to the environment would not take a cast of thousands or years to produce. It just takes some will to get down to no-assumptions fundamentals. I really hope this doesn't provoke any more defensiveness. I consider a forum a place to be candid.