LiveCode 8.0.0 Property Palette

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Re: LiveCode 8.0.0 Property Palette

Post by mwieder » Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:05 am

LC8dp16PI.png
LC8-dp16 property inspector
In LC8-dp16 at least the labels got onto the right side of the checkboxes.
But they should be moved way to the left margin. I gotta agree with shaosean that it looks stupid.
And the windowShape id window is way too long.
and the decorations button shows only osx and windows images. And has no tooltips so it's impossible to know what you're about to select.

Do we really still support metal?
I thought liveResizing had gone by the wayside and now it's just resizable.

Why is the ink selector so wide?

And even though it's kind of resizable up to a point, I still really wish the PI didn't have its own ideas of how tall and wide it should be and where it should be located on the screen. Unfortunately the code is written so that the height and width are intimately linked with the control placement when you select the tiny icons at the top, so it doesn't look like an easy job to decouple those actions.

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Re: LiveCode 8.0.0 Property Palette

Post by jacque » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:46 am

The unnecessarily wide single-digit fields are what I commented on previously. They should be a set width, to accomodate only two or three digits (sort of like the scaleFactor field, only that one's a little too wide too.) Almost all the popdown buttons and text fields throughout the palette expand to the full width of the window when most of them shouldn't.

The placement of the checkboxes looks correct to me, maybe because it's what we see in the OS X system preferences and other similar windows. But ideally they'd line up exactly with the field(s) above them, they're a few pixels too far to the right as-is.

Edit: On OS X the checkboxes line up fine. Must be an OS difference.
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Re: LiveCode 8.0.0 Property Palette

Post by mwieder » Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:42 am

The checkboxes more or less line up with the controls above them, but you've got no consistency:

fields with labels to their left
checkboxes with labels to their right
a decorations selector to the right of a field
a windowshape selector to the left of a field

What's with all the wasted space to the left of the checkboxes? Why not line them up at the left margin? Part of the problem here is the amount of screen real estate taken up by the property inspector.

If this were up to me, I'd at least .put the checkboxes in a separate tab panel

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Re: LiveCode 8.0.0 Property Palette

Post by FourthWorld » Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:48 am

mwieder wrote:What's with all the wasted space to the left of the checkboxes? Why not line them up at the left margin? Part of the problem here is the amount of screen real estate taken up by the property inspector.
Resize it as narrow as you prefer and the problem goes away. :)
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Re: LiveCode 8.0.0 Property Palette

Post by mwieder » Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:10 am

No, it doesn't. There's a minimum width that truncates the longer checkbox labels, and the checkboxes don't move to the left when you resize it. And only the width can be resized... the height is constant per panel.

Maybe the unused space in the property editor is reserved for targeted advertising? "other people who viewed these properties also bought licenses for..."

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Re: LiveCode 8.0.0 Property Palette

Post by FourthWorld » Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:24 am

mwieder wrote:No, it doesn't. There's a minimum width that truncates the longer checkbox labels, and the checkboxes don't move to the left when you resize it. And only the width can be resized... the height is constant per panel.
The general layout doesn't bother me too much: labels to the left, user-settable controls to the right. Make the window about 1/3 as narrow and I'm okay with it myself, at least with the broader layout.

The details, however, are odd:
- Why not align the checkboxes to line up with all the other settable controls (something tells me they probably do on Mac <g>)?
- Why is the WindowShape icon empty?
- What's with the 3-pixels-too-low text baseline for the checkboxes? I thought that was fixed with the appearance update, no?
- Why is the option control center-aligned rather than left-aligned?
Maybe the unused space in the property editor is reserved for targeted advertising? "other people who viewed these properties also bought licenses for..."
That would be cool, because that might mean they'd be able to reinstate the ad support on iOS and Android along with it. ;)
(I jest, but the ad support is kind of a big deal, and I'm surprised it's been out of commission this long)
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Re: LiveCode 8.0.0 Property Palette

Post by mwieder » Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:24 am

Why not align the checkboxes to line up with all the other settable controls (something tells me they probably do on Mac <g>)?
Jacque says they look good on osx.
Why is the WindowShape icon empty?
If you assign a windowshape it's no longer empty.
What's with the 3-pixels-too-low text baseline for the checkboxes? I thought that was fixed with the appearance update, no?
Got a github notification earlier that there's a theming fix in the works for the next dp release for linux fonts.

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Re: LiveCode 8.0.0 Property Palette

Post by livecodeali » Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:18 pm

Unfortunately I have only just seen this thread - some of these issues could probably have been fixed easily.
mwieder wrote: In LC8-dp16 at least the labels got onto the right side of the checkboxes.
Did this really only happen in DP 16? I think I fixed it in DP 8, but maybe something to do with theming prevented it from working on Linux.
mwieder wrote: But they should be moved way to the left margin. I gotta agree with shaosean that it looks stupid.
Are you suggesting
Screen Shot 2016-04-04 at 17.06.23.png
or
Screen Shot 2016-04-04 at 17.06.49.png
?
mwieder wrote: and the decorations button shows only osx and windows images. And has no tooltips so it's impossible to know what you're about to select.
As far as I can tell, this is not a regression. Not that it shouldn't be fixed, mind.
mwieder wrote: the tiny icons at the top
Am I allowed to <sigh>?
Screen Shot 2016-04-04 at 17.12.19.png
mwieder wrote: And even though it's kind of resizable up to a point, I still really wish the PI didn't have its own ideas of how tall and wide it should be and where it should be located on the screen. Unfortunately the code is written so that the height and width are intimately linked with the control placement when you select , so it doesn't look like an easy job to decouple those actions.
If it doesn't go where you think it should on the screen, it is a bug. Please report it.


I'd be very interested to hear suggestions on how the PI should respond when resized, as I agree it would be much nicer if it didn't have to fix its width and height. Do the controls expand? Which ones? Or does the padding between controls expand? If things like the windowShape id field are shortened to fit only a few digits, should increasing the width just increase the empty space?
FourthWorld wrote: - Why is the option control center-aligned rather than left-aligned?
Why should it be left-aligned? As far as I know this question has never been asked. If there's a good reason either way, it's a 10 second fix.

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Re: LiveCode 8.0.0 Property Palette

Post by livecodeali » Mon Apr 04, 2016 5:52 pm

Ok I guess I see that it should be left-aligned because all the text-entry fields are.

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Re: LiveCode 8.0.0 Property Palette

Post by FourthWorld » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:09 pm

livecodeali wrote:
FourthWorld wrote: - Why is the option control center-aligned rather than left-aligned?
Why should it be left-aligned?
Every HIG I've ever read for every platform has option controls left-aligned. Outside of LiveCode I can't recall seeing option controls made any other way.
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Re: LiveCode 8.0.0 Property Palette

Post by richmond62 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:15 pm

Am I allowed to <sigh>?
Yes:
indeed.png
indeed.png (10.24 KiB) Viewed 7900 times
But I may also be allowed to whisper "under documented" ?

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Re: LiveCode 8.0.0 Property Palette

Post by richmond62 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 6:56 pm

Also:
icons.png
icons.png (10.77 KiB) Viewed 7886 times
"Icons"
words.png
"Labels"

It would also be nice to have a "Both" option:
awkward.png

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Re: LiveCode 8.0.0 Property Palette

Post by mwieder » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:20 pm

Did this really only happen in DP 16? I think I fixed it in DP 8, but maybe something to do with theming prevented it from working on Linux.
I just loaded dp15, and it's fixed there, too. Dp16 was all I had installed when I posted that - it wasn't supposed to be "finally in dp16..." but more of "I'm looking at dp16 and they're correct", so you're probably right that dp8 had the fix. I'm not going to bother going back to install it to find out.
Are you suggesting
More like the second one, with the checkboxes lined up near the left border, although I think it would look better with the other labels above also left-aligned near the left border as well.
As far as I can tell, this is not a regression. Not that it shouldn't be fixed, mind.
Correct - not a regression, just a continuing annoyance.
Am I allowed to <sigh>?
Interesting thought, but I rather like Richmond's suggestion.
I'd be very interested to hear suggestions on how the PI should respond when resized
Well, IMO I'd rather the PI didn't resize or relocate at all. That's bothered me since the Runrev 1.0 days. How about allowing it to be user-resizable, and setting the default size to the minimum necessary for all the controls to be visible? Or grouping the controls and having scrollbars? What I'd like to have is a PI that I can set in one place on the screen and be able to switch between panes without it resizing on me. But maybe that's just me. This would also really help me with a backburner project following on some work Andy Piddock started for an Eclipse-style IDE. There the hardest part is the fact that the PI keeps resizing itself.

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Re: LiveCode 8.0.0 Property Palette

Post by jacque » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:36 pm

I'd be very interested to hear suggestions on how the PI should respond when resized, as I agree it would be much nicer if it didn't have to fix its width and height. Do the controls expand? Which ones? Or does the padding between controls expand?
So glad you popped in! Talking to the source is great. :)

Here's my take on resizing the palette: It shouldn't do that on its own, it should respect the user's preference. In some apps, the solution is to add a "more" arrow at the right of the row, usually a double angle bracket (">>"), and when clicked, the whole icon group slides left to reveal the right-hand icons that were not previously visible. A "less" icon at the left ("<<") slides the row back to the right again. If the palette is made wide enough to accomodate all the icons, then the more and less arrows are disabled. This allows the user to set their preferred size and still reveal all the options. It's disorienting to have the whole palette change size spontaneously.
If things like the windowShape id field are shortened to fit only a few digits, should increasing the width just increase the empty space?
Yes, leave the space empty. It will look better than the very wide controls that contain little text, especially if the text is all left-aligned.

For the alignment of the checkboxes -- I think they look fine left-aligned with the left side of the fields above them. That's normal on OS X so I'm used to it. It may not be standard on other operating systems, so I guess mileage may vary. Unless you want to vary the layout by OS, I'm not sure how to resolve this.

One thing I'd like to see is a permanent Align icon. It isn't intuitive to only display it when multiple objects are selected. It should enable/disable as needed, but it should always be visible so that users know the PI supports the feature. If it is necessary for some reason that it not be displayed at all times, it should at least appear at the right side of the row rather than the left. The displacement of the expected icon order is unexpected and not where users will likely notice it. At least, I didn't until it was pointed out to me. Consistent layout is an important useability feature; users will memorize that "the Basic pane is always the first item at the left" and if you tinker with that you've introduced disorientation.

Richmond's idea to have a "both" option for the icons is what I'd like to see too. Then I don't have to scan with the mouse to read the (as yet nonworking) tooltips. In fact, with a "both" option you could probably ditch the tooltips entirely.
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Re: LiveCode 8.0.0 Property Palette

Post by richmond62 » Mon Apr 04, 2016 7:51 pm

I could go a lot further than the "Both" and start rambling on about how
I'd prefer different coloured icons:

I don't give a d*mn that black-and-white is the new coloured, and I feel
that the decision to go for black icons all over the place is a shame.

I have just spent 30 minutes "digging" to try and locate the icons in the Props Palette,
even if nothing else you should be congratulated on having hidden them very effectively indeed.

If you are going for options then a choice of BW or "Colored" would also be nice.

The black-and-white icons remind me of the last few lines of that film "Crazy People":

"SONY, because caucasions are just too damn tall."

We could change that to something like this:

"Livecode coders aren't getting any younger and their eyes are getting all squinty."

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