Livecode Create - thoughts?

[kevinmiller]

I am a long standing customer and am very unhappy with it.

Drop me a line directly and I'll see what we can for you.

[Simon Knight]

I'm confused by the two licence options. From the web site they are

Internal Apps
If you use Create within a business, to automate processes or provide apps for employees or clients, then this model applies to you. Every end user of the apps, stacks or processes built using Create needs a seat license, as well as the developers actually using the Create IDE.

Apps for sale
If you use Create to build apps for sale to the public, either via an app store or your own website, then you will need a developer seat plus you will make application payments on the revenue generated by the app. These payments will never be more than 5% of the app revenue, and only apply to revenue directly generated by the app

So if I work for a company and they buy me a Livecode License I can use any applications I write at no further charge. However, if a colleague installs the app on their work computer and runs the application then Livecode require a second license to be purchased even if the application has a very short life span. Is this correct?

If I resign and go freelance and I buy an Apps for Sale license and then create the same application I can sell the application and Livecode gets 5% of whatever I charge. If I charge nothing I have to include a logo on the page and Livecode gets nothing. I must be misunderstanding how this is all suppose to work.

Perhaps it hinges on the meaning of "sale to the public"

Perplexed !

S

[stam]

Hello Stam,

Yes the cat is well out of the bag now, we only asked you not to discuss it until we went public

I think you haven't fully understood what we are offering however. LiveCode Create Native is the new desktop IDE. We're certainly not going only to offer web apps. You will be able to run the LiveCode Create IDE on Mac and Windows, as well as on the Web. You will be able to build standalone apps for iOS and Android as well as all the desktop platforms and deploy to Web. There is no cause for alarm here.

Best Regards,

Heather

Thanks for clarifying Heather - I think maybe my confusion arose from the slides Kevin showed - I misunderstood these as being a web IDE, if it’s a desktop app then so much the better.

As I mentioned above, the pricing structure is much better for me and I’m keeping an open mind. As long as I can do what I need with it you’ll have a happy customer!

But I’ve also used this as an excuse to make myself finally get fluid with Python
It just irks me how much better the LiveCode language is …!

[kevinmiller]

I'm confused by the two licence options. From the web site they are

Internal Apps
If you use Create within a business, to automate processes or provide apps for employees or clients, then this model applies to you. Every end user of the apps, stacks or processes built using Create needs a seat license, as well as the developers actually using the Create IDE.

Apps for sale
If you use Create to build apps for sale to the public, either via an app store or your own website, then you will need a developer seat plus you will make application payments on the revenue generated by the app. These payments will never be more than 5% of the app revenue, and only apply to revenue directly generated by the app

So if I work for a company and they buy me a Livecode License I can use any applications I write at no further charge. However, if a colleague installs the app on their work computer and runs the application then Livecode require a second license to be purchased even if the application has a very short life span. Is this correct?

If I resign and go freelance and I buy an Apps for Sale license and then create the same application I can sell the application and Livecode gets 5% of whatever I charge. If I charge nothing I have to include a logo on the page and Livecode gets nothing. I must be misunderstanding how this is all suppose to work.

Perhaps it hinges on the meaning of "sale to the public"

Perplexed !

S

Yes, if you work for a company and other employees want to use the apps they will need a license - this is the Internal Apps model.

If you resign and go freelance then you can use the Apps for Sale model, but you'll need to have more than one customer for it to qualify as a true app for sale. Otherwise it's simply a bespoke app and the company you make it for continues to need the seat licensing from the company that uses it.

[richmond62]

Otherwise it's simply a bespoke app and the company you make it for continues to need the seat licensing from the company that uses it.

Does that mean a single company using a standalone I have developed for them has to pay for a license from LiveCode?

[AndyP]

Otherwise it's simply a bespoke app and the company you make it for continues to need the seat licensing from the company that uses it.

Just to be clear on this.

1. I as the programmer will need a licence for LiveCodeCreate or whatever flavour of that I choose, that is understood.

2. If I create software for a company, then they will need a seat licence for each and every copy of that software that they deploy. Is that correct?

3. For LiveCode to keep track on the deployment numbers there will have to a connection to the internet from the app. Is that correct?

4. If 3 is yes, what happens with software that must be air gaped, i.e. for Military use?

[stam]

Dear Kevin,
You brushed on this, but I hadn't realised the exact detail involved until this thread brought it into focus. Like everyone else it seems, the nitty-gritty of this is confusing and the devil is, as they say, in the detail.

Yes, if you work for a company and other employees want to use the apps they will need a license - this is the Internal Apps model.

How will LC ascertain who is using the app? Will there be a mandatory login process? is it bound to a PC? Number of concurrent users? If IP based, does that mean than customers within the same IP will not able to run? Is this honour-based?

If you resign and go freelance then you can use the Apps for Sale model, but you'll need to have more than one customer for it to qualify as a true app for sale. Otherwise it's simply a bespoke app and the company you make it for continues to need the seat licensing from the company that uses it.

How does LC determine the number of customers to make it qualify as a true app for sale? Will the customers need to login? Will this be mandated through an app-store like download facility? Will LC require a listing of customers? What if the customers do not want to disclose their identities to LC? Is it IP based? In which case how does that work if I'm selling the app for free or for profit to customers that are under the same IP/institution?


As I mentioned at our meeting, my predominant use for LC is to create bespoke apps that fill various gaps at my work place. Up to now, I have created standalones and asked users to download these from my website, free of charge. I take on the fiscal and development cost myself. Neither the department nor the users will pay (even in a trust as well known as ours, financial restraints are considerable and even we are a hair's breath from being put under special measures due to chronic underfunding of the NHS).

Now if I also have to pay a licence for each user (anywhere between 6 and 25 users per app), that would become unsustainable.
I'm not sure how 'call home' apps would work with the information governance restrictions we have in place in healthcare.

So I share the confusion of others with the nitty-gritty of licensing and wonder how this change will affect my specific circumstances...

Many thanks for clarifying,
Stam

[Simon Knight]

3. For LiveCode to keep track on the deployment numbers there will have to a connection to the internet from the app. Is that correct?

Kevin has stated on the use list that special arrangements will be made available on a case by case basis.

4. If 3 is yes, what happens with software that must be air gaped, i.e. for Military use?

Even with a "special arrangement" from RunRev Ltd I suspect you will have a difficult and very expensive time getting a Livecode app through security checking. My guess that even if the phone home aspects are disabled the dial out code will remain within the build which will throw up a red flag.

Mind you I'm years out of date but I doubt things have become simpler.

S

[FourthWorld]

This isn’t all negative. This comes with a new pricing structure that will be much friendlier to non-professional devs...

Growing the user base is of course the highest priority.

What percentage of new users would you venture to guess we'll see in these forums over the next six months now that this new pricing plan has been rolled out to attract them?

Personally I’ve been brushing up on Python since I heard this news.

I like von Rossum's design principles, and Python is certainly popular. What are you using for GUI: Qt, wxWidgets (is that still a thing?), or something else?

[Simon Knight]

Growing the user base is of course the highest priority.

Yes, however its been the priority for as long as I have used a RunRev/Livecode.

What percentage of new users would you venture to guess we'll see in these forums over the next six months now that this new pricing plan has been rolled out to attract them?

Not many unless there is a well coordinated information and marketing campaign. Also online assets such as "Sample Stacks" need a complete rewrite so that they are attractive and responsive. Put me down for less than 4%.

The opposite to your question is how many old users will disappear in the next six months?

For me the strength of Livecode over and above the language itself is this forum and the fact that I can build applications that are mine to give away or sell as I see fit. That freedom is being taken away and in its place there is friction.

I've never programmed in Python but I now know who von Rossum is: BDFL, thanks for prompting me to google him.

S

[AndyP]

What are you using for GUI: Qt, wxWidgets (is that still a thing?), or something else?

tkinter and customtinker are good and popular solutions for gui layout. Also lots of videos on YouTube explaining how to use.

[FourthWorld]

What are you using for GUI: Qt, wxWidgets (is that still a thing?), or something else?

tkinter and customtinker are good and popular solutions for gui layout.

Thanks. Funny how so many roads still lead back to Osterhaut.

[PaulDaMacMan]

I have to say I am a little intrigued by this new profit-sharing license model. Could maybe get back on board with that, continuing as hobbyist, and then maybe eventually releasing a software product or two for sale. Need more info.

[PaulDaMacMan]

What are you using for GUI: Qt, wxWidgets (is that still a thing?), or something else?

tkinter and customtinker are good and popular solutions for gui layout. Also lots of videos on YouTube explaining how to use.

tkinter was really wonky last time I tried to use it with Python3.x on macOS. To me it seems Qt is most popular nowadays.

[Zax]

If I understand correctly, LC Create will be resolutely focused on commerce and productivity.
As a non-professional, I feel a little worried about all the students and hobbyists like me who currently use LC for their own use, or to share freeware software, because the licensing plans are clearly not designed for them.
Which I can understand, because I imagine that this category of users does not bring in enough money.

Do you think that licensing solutions will be considered for this category of users, or should I consider looking for replacement software today? It is obvious that I am not going to start new developments with LC knowing that the software will no longer be updated in 2027.

In any case, if Apple had broken my heart when I was young by abandoning Hypercard, I fortunately had many years of happiness with LC.
A big thank you for all these years