two cards that open randomly

[jacque]

I wonder if it went into the virtual store folder. Apps aren't supposed to write to the program folder any more.

[HJay]

Two files turn up, which are a copy I had to send to Documents in order to create a zip file as I could not create a zip file from the default location. The copy is not the current version being worked on. It also doesn’t find my backup files which are called ‘the date & time’ matching numbers?

If I use ‘save as’ and save the file in Documents. I can then later navigate to that file and find it. It also shows up when I do a search.

So I suppose the best option now is to move all my LiveCode stacks to a folder in Documents I guess? Are you able to change the default save location in LiveCode?

HJay

[AtoZ]

So my problem at the moment is to get the program to progress past the start button, have attached what I have done, if you wouldn’t mind having a little look

I'll be happy to try to help, but as I'll explain below I can only go so far at this point.

I was puzzled that the Start button was not working, since it worked fine on a copy of your stack where I made the original modifications that I suggested to you. In looking at the code for the button, everything looked OK. (By the way, you can delete all the commented-out code at the bottom now.) But then the stack began to exhibit some strange behavior, specifically I no longer had the ability to open scripts. When I opened the Application Browser I discovered that I had somehow managed to open two stacks with the same name. (I suspect this happened when I had closed the stack earlier and had gotten the message about this being the last stack of that name open, and did I want to remove all the stacks of this file from memory? I always answer yes to that question, but I think I must have been distracted and clicked the no button, leaving the stack in memory. Then when I opened the stack later I ended up with two copies of the stack open.) After I closed both stacks (and then LiveCode as well -- to be sure), and then reopened your stack, the Start button was working fine. Try opening your stack again after having closed LiveCode, and see if the Start button works OK again.

I would like to help you further with the rest of your code, but until I can understand exactly what the logic behind the stack is, it is hard to advise you. Here are a few things I don't understand right now:

1. On the very nicely done diagram you sent, you show only one outcome from clicking a number on card FR1 (or FR20). But there are two buttons for the user to choose from. Does the user go to one of the color cards regardless of whether or not they answered correctly? If not, what is supposed to happen if the wrong button is clicked?

2. Once the user gets to one of the color cards, does he or she stay there for only 1 choice before going back to the start button? If not, how many choices are to be made? And again, does it matter to the program whether the right or wrong choice is made (other than keeping score)?

3. I am also confused, as I mentioned in an earlier post, as to how the user is to decide which side (color) of the card to answer. It is powerfully confusing to me to be shown two buttons (and be told to click both of them), when only one can be clicked on.

Now, as I also said earlier, I don't need to understand these things -- if you can massage your stack to do what you want then all is well, but if you would like/need assistance, I need to understand your goals with the stack (and I can be pretty dense -- sorry.)

Finally, some postscripts:

P.S. With regard to the naming of variables. Prefixing them with a g or t is completely optional. I like to do it, because every time I type in a variable, I like to remind myself whether it works globally or locally, because, as you know, one has to make sure that the information stored in the variable is available when it's needed. So, for me, I like to "force" myself to think about the variable every time I type the name. If you choose not to, no problem. (There are some other benefits to following this convention as well. There's a brief explanation of them on page 165 of the LC User Guide and a fuller explanation in the article at this site: http://www.fourthworld.com/embassy/arti ... tml#Naming )

P.P.S. Congratulations on using a custom property on your color backround scripts to store the possible pairing and retrive them for use. I'm sure you worked long and hard at that, and as long as it's working right (and I have no reason to think it's not), then there is no reason to change it. (I know you were guided in that direction in an earlier forum discussion.) However, if you ever want/need to redo it, please be aware that there are much simpler ways of doing this, which I will be happy to share if you ask. But there's no need to fix something that's working well.

P.P.P.S. (My last, I promise -- for this post at least.) In looking at the code for generating those pairs, it looks as though you read the 90 possible pairs into memory every time the user clicks the button, and then use only one of the pairs. The reading of the pairs into memory is something that cries out to be moved to, say, the openStack script and then referenced from there whenever you need to. However, LiveCode is so fast, that in this situation it probably doesn't really matter. In general though, when writing a program, be alert to ways of avoiding making LiveCode repeat the same steps over and over.

[HJay]

Hi AtoZ

Thanks for hanging on in there!

I'll be happy to try to help, but as I'll explain below I can only go so far at this point.

I was puzzled that the Start button was not working, since it worked fine on a copy of your stack where I made the original modifications that I suggested to you. In looking at the code for the button, everything looked OK. (By the way, you can delete all the commented-out code at the bottom now.) But then the stack began to exhibit some strange behavior, specifically I no longer had the ability to open scripts. When I opened the Application Browser I discovered that I had somehow managed to open two stacks with the same name. (I suspect this happened when I had closed the stack earlier and had gotten the message about this being the last stack of that name open, and did I want to remove all the stacks of this file from memory? I always answer yes to that question, but I think I must have been distracted and clicked the no button, leaving the stack in memory. Then when I opened the stack later I ended up with two copies of the stack open.) After I closed both stacks (and then LiveCode as well -- to be sure), and then reopened your stack, the Start button was working fine. Try opening your stack again after having closed LiveCode, and see if the Start button works OK again.

Your right, I had noticed that I was sometimes unable to open script and had shut down and reopened LiveCode but I hadn’t realised it was also stopping the stack working. Have now closed and reopened it and now pressing the start button accesses the cards

I would like to help you further with the rest of your code, but until I can understand exactly what the logic behind the stack is, it is hard to advise you. Here are a few things I don't understand right now:

1. On the very nicely done diagram you sent, you show only one outcome from clicking a number on card FR1 (or FR20). But there are two buttons for the user to choose from. Does the user go to one of the color cards regardless of whether or not they answered correctly? If not, what is supposed to happen if the wrong button is clicked?


2. Once the user gets to one of the color cards, does he or she stay there for only 1 choice before going back to the start button? If not, how many choices are to be made? And again, does it matter to the program whether the right or wrong choice is made (other than keeping score)?

Have adjusted the pic as I had the arrows going back to far. Have also added more notes to hopefully clear the questions up. I thought it was easier to understand if I put them there. I also need to explain what a concurrent schedule is, bear with me.

flow chart.zip

(196.75 KiB) Downloaded 234 times

Red Yellow
Red Yellow
Yellow Red
Yellow Red
Red Yellow
Red Yellow
Yellow Red
Yellow Red

Also the blue green choice needs to follow this pattern
But it will also be following the random order of the FR1 and FR20 cards
This is really hard to get your head around (I feel another picture coming on)
Have absolutely no idea how this will happen eek!

3. I am also confused, as I mentioned in an earlier post, as to how the user is to decide which side (color) of the card to answer. It is powerfully confusing to me to be shown two buttons (and be told to click both of them), when only one can be clicked on.

With the red or yellow choice if they choose the red they get a 5p reward if they choose yellow they get nothing. is it posible to have a picture of a 5p appear?
With the green or blue choice if they choose the green they get a 5p reward if they choose blue they get nothing.
The point of the concurrent schedule above is to teach them this in the shortest time.

Now, as I also said earlier, I don't need to understand these things -- if you can massage your stack to do what you want then all is well, but if you would like/need assistance, I need to understand your goals with the stack (and I can be pretty dense -- sorry.)

I work in the field of behaviour and learning and we have a phrase ‘The learner is always right’ which basically means that if you don’t get something I am trying to explain, it is because I am not explaining it properly.

Finally, some postscripts:

P.S. With regard to the naming of variables. Prefixing them with a g or t is completely optional. I like to do it, because every time I type in a variable, I like to remind myself whether it works globally or locally, because, as you know, one has to make sure that the information stored in the variable is available when it's needed. So, for me, I like to "force" myself to think about the variable every time I type the name. If you choose not to, no problem. (There are some other benefits to following this convention as well. There's a brief explanation of them on page 165 of the LC User Guide and a fuller explanation in the article at this site: http://www.fourthworld.com/embassy/arti ... tml#Naming )

I think this is a very good idea and I will try and stick to the putting the t’s and the g’s in

P.P.S. Congratulations on using a custom property on your color backround scripts to store the possible pairing and retrive them for use. I'm sure you worked long and hard at that, and as long as it's working right (and I have no reason to think it's not), then there is no reason to change it. (I know you were guided in that direction in an earlier forum discussion.) However, if you ever want/need to redo it, please be aware that there are much simpler ways of doing this, which I will be happy to share if you ask. But there's no need to fix something that's working well.

Yep I am aware that there is a ‘maths’ way of doing this but if I wanted, at a later date, to modify the program to match letters or words I could just change the custom property rather than the structure of the program.

P.P.P.S. (My last, I promise -- for this post at least.) In looking at the code for generating those pairs, it looks as though you read the 90 possible pairs into memory every time the user clicks the button, and then use only one of the pairs. The reading of the pairs into memory is something that cries out to be moved to, say, the openStack script and then referenced from there whenever you need to. However, LiveCode is so fast, that in this situation it probably doesn't really matter. In general though, when writing a program, be alert to ways of avoiding making LiveCode repeat the same steps over and over.

I must admit I don’t really understand what is happening here?

Once again many many thanks

HJay

[AtoZ]

HJay,

OK, I think I'm making some progress in understanding what you want to do with this stack.

As I studied your diagram and comments, I realized your diagram was basically a simplified flowchart of your stack, but the "decision points" were missing (i.e., where does the path branch and what determines which path to take). I used to do a little flowcharting years ago, when they were more common, and I still find them useful from time to time -- especially when dealing with a program that has a complex logic such as yours.

So for my own benefit, I created a flowchart showing my understanding of how the program is supposed to work, which I've attached to this post. (The flowchart doesn't follow all the conventional rules of flowcharting, but it should work for our purposes here.)

Work Ethic Flowchart.zip

(52.09 KiB) Downloaded 247 times

Please look it over to see if I have the logic right for how the program is to flow. If not, I'll update it with whatever changes you suggest. Once we have a final version, I believe it will serve as a good guide in finishing up your stack.

A couple of things to think about:

1) With the FR20 card, you want to pupil to get 20 consecutive correct answers in a row before they can proceed to the Blue/Green card. In effect you've created an endless loop here that the pupil can't get of until he or she gets the 20 consecutive correct answers. Endless loops are usually considered bad form in programming. You might want to provide a way out for someone who is having difficulty completing the task. For example, you might track the number of cycles through the loop and after, say, 5 trips through, bring up an answer box that might read something like: "You seem to be having problems completing this task. Please ask your teacher for some help." The answer box would have three buttons to choose from: "No, I want to continue.", "OK, I'll stop until I get help.", and "Exit the program." As usual there are many different ways to handle something like this, and I know that you might be constrained in your available options since you're trying to match the previous study. So, no problem if you don't want to do this or something similar.

2) Similarly, no provision has been made for a pupil to exit the program once she or he begins. Again, you may have constraints here that limit what you can do, but it might be a good idea to have a small "Stop..." button in the bottom corner of every card, which would bring up an answer box saying, "You clicked the Stop button, what would like to do?" The answer box would have three buttons to choose from: "Go back and continue", "Start over again", and "Exit the program."

You haven't yet implemented the "concurrent schedule" for switching the color backgrounds on the color cards. To put you mind at ease, that shouldn't be too difficult to do. You just need a counter to keep track of how often the pupil has come to the card, and switch the colors every other time (one way would be to switch on odd numbers of visits -- or even ones). The actual switch would just be a line of code for each box that changes its color.) I'll be happy to guide you through this when you reach that point -- if you need it.

You asked if you could add an image of a 5-pence coin when the pupil gets the right answer. The short answer is yes, of course. You first need to find a good photo of the coin without a background (search the Images section of Google) -- but be sure to get an image that's in the public domain or contact the owner of the image and get written permission to use it. You also need to decide where the coin will appear: Someplace on the color cards? Or perhaps a little pop-up window that would show it for a moment. Let me know your thoughts on this. Importing the image into you stack is straightforward and the coin can have it's own script to determine when it is shown or hidden.

We can deal with the issues I raised in my previous postscripts later after you've made more progress in completing the stack.

Hope this helps. I'm learning things as I go along as well, so I'm happy to assist, plus I think it's for a good cause, which is why I've invested a little more time in helping than I normally would have.

[AtoZ]

Oops, my bad. I just noticed that I made at least one error in the flowchart. (There could be many others! Smile.) When the program cycles back to the top, I have the arrows pointing to the Start button -- but going there would reset the counters for how many of each of the FR cards have been shown. Instead, the arrows should come in below the Start button to the decision diamond. I have to leave shortly and don't have time to revise it now, but I'll do it later today when I get back (probably much later, sigh). Perhaps by then you'll had a opportunity to look it over and send me any other changes you want.

[AtoZ]

Here is the revised flowchart. (Sorry about that.)

Work Ethic Flowchart.zip

(52.04 KiB) Downloaded 232 times

It reviewing what I wrote in my last in my long post to you yesterday, I've decided that I didn't use the best comparison in the first paragraph of the numbered list (about the need for 20 consecutive correct answers before a pupil can move on in the program).

The fact that a pupil could get stuck in the loop is NOT what is normally referred to as an "endless loop" in programming. That term refers to a section of a computer code that inadvertently puts the computer into a endless cycle of repeating the same instructions, with there being no way for the user to get out of the loop short of stopping the program or shutting down the computer.

Your code is not a endless loop in that sense. The pupil can get out of it by getting 20 consecutive right answers. I apologize if I confused you about this. Nevertheless, even if my choice of words was not the best, I still stand by the overall point I was trying to make, namely that it might be wise to monitor the number of cycles the pupil goes through and when it reaches a certain point to offer the pupil a way out of the loop.

By the way, if you ever create an true endless loop while working on a program, pressing the control key along with the period key (.) will often get you out the loop. But this doesn't always work, and you may have to quit LiveCode (if you can) or in the worst case, shut down your computer. In that case, you may have to revert to an earlier backup of your program before you added the problem code. Another reason to test your stack frequently as you code and to backup often.

--------

On a totally different subject:

There's something that's been hovering in the back of my mind for some time about how this stack will be used by the target audience (which is, as I understand it, pupils who have some sort of learning disability). If they need practice in distinguishing numbers, how capable would they be of reading even a simple instruction such as "Click the 4"?

Will they have a teacher or mentor sitting next to them? Or do you expect that once the stack is explained to them, they will be able to remember what to do without actually reading the instruction?

The reason I'm asking this now, is that I've been considering making another suggestion that I believe would help the pupil understand the purpose of the color cards, but it involves adding a sentence at the top of the cards (in the white space above the colors). But there would not be much point to that, if they can't read it. (Although perhaps the would remember it, if it were read to them when they're taught how to use the program.) Anyway, just thought I would ask about this.

[AtoZ]

At the risk of confusing you with too many variations before you've had a chance to assimilate the first version, I am attaching a revised flowchart which I am labeling version 1.5.

Work Ethic Flowchart - ver 1-5.zip

(52.34 KiB) Downloaded 224 times

Although there was nothing wrong with the logic of the first version, I was thinking this morning about where you would put the code for the various steps in the flowchart, and realized that code for checking to see if all 20 FR cards had been shown would have to be placed in the scripts for the buttons on the color cards. So it made sense to move the decision diamond for that from near the top of the flowchart to below the color cards. (Each color card now has it own decision diamond to check if 20 FR cards have been shown.) As a consequence, the Finish box also got moved to the bottom of the flowchart, which also makes more sense.

I believe you'll find the version 1.5 easier to follow.

I won't be making any other changes until I hear from you if I've gotten the basic flow of the program correct (and if it is correct, perhaps we won't have to make any more changes). We should only be so lucky (smile).

[HJay]

Hi AtoZ

Wow again! Yep version 1.5 seems to be virtually perfect the only thing that need to happen is that if they get one of the coloured cards wrong after the “oops try again” is that the same sum would need to be represented.

With regards to your earlier question about pupils being able to read, some can some can’t. There will be a teacher supporting them throughout this training phase. The teacher will read out “click the ‘number’” but the repetitive nature of this program will mean that I suspect this will take two or three trials before the pupil picks up on what they have to do. These pupils have a learning disability coupled with challenging behaviour, so believe me I am not going to do anything that may wind them up in any way.

I have found a picture of a 5p but I need to cut the background out, will work out how to do that next what is the best file format to save it in and how many dpi should I use, pretty low I guess?

Again many many thanks.

HJay

[AtoZ]

HJay,

Glad I got the flowchart basically right.

A few questions for you before I revise it:

1. You said that when the pupil clicks the wrong button on the color background cards, the same numbers should be shown again. No problem. How do you want the "Oops..." message to be shown? It could either be a dialog box that pops up with an OK button and will remain on the screen until the student clicks the button, or it could be a dialog box that pops up for a few seconds and then disappears on its own. Because these pupils may vary in the comprehension speed, I suspect the first option would be best because they would be in charge of how long the message was on the screen. Just let me know which you would prefer.

2. What about the numbers on the FR cards? Should the wrong answer cause to program to repeat the same numbers again there, or do you want different numbers each time?

3. The way the program is structured now, if the student were to not make any mistakes going through it, she or he will have to make 230 choices from beginning to end: 10 for the 10 repetitions of the FR1 cards + 200 for the FR20 cards (20 correct answers for 10 repetitions of the card) + 10 for the Red & Yellow card + 10 for the Blue & Green card. Of course, the likelihood is that pupils will make mistakes along the way, so they may have to make many more choices before the program is finished. There are 90 possible pairs of non-duplicating single digits, so even for students who have perfect scores they will have an opportunity to see all 90 pairs not quite 3 times during the course of the program. My questions about this are: a) Do you want to make sure that all 90 pairs are shown before any repeats appear? And b) If so, should this be tracked throughout the program or separately for each card? (Or perhaps only for the FR20 cards and not the others?)

4. Where and how do you want to display the coin image after a correct answer on the color background cards? I would think it should be handled similarly to the "Oops..." message, with either the coin (and I assume an accompanying message) appearing with an OK button, or else appearing for a fixed amount of time.

Once we get the answers to these questions resolved, I'll revise the flowchart, and you'll have a good guide for tracking the flow of the coding in your stack.

----

With regard to your questions about the coin image. I think your best bet is to use the png format for the image, since it supports transparent backgrounds -- which makes it easy to use for something like this, even if it isn't quite as compact a format as jpg. I wouldn't worry to much about the dpi for the image. At this point you have only the one image, and only one copy of it needs to be stored in your stack, so the size of the image isn't really going to matter. (If your original image is very large, you may want to reduce it to a smaller size before you import it into your stack.) On the other hand, since, as far as I know, the image will only appear on the screen, and will not be printed out, any dpi above 92 dpi will be wasted (and for many computer screens anything above 72 dpi is automatically down-converted by the display software) -- so something in the 92 dpi range would be fine.

If you know how, or want to learn how, to remove the coin background (which I encourage) -- and just as importantly, if you have access to a graphics program that will allow you to do this, then please go ahead and prepare the image on you own. On the other hand, if you don't want to learn a whole new process or don't have access to the right program, just zip up the image and send it to me in you response to this post, and I'll do it for you. (As a designer, I have several programs that do this, and it's something that I do all the time.)

[HJay]

Hi AtoZ

1. Very very good point, because the pupil can’t read I think a cross would be best, will look for a picture of a friendly looking cross. Yes I prefer a button press though for the reasons you specified.

2. Another random sum will be fine.

3. Am not bothered that all the 90 pairs are seen am only bothered that the pairs are random. Thank you for working that out though, it has just brought back to me that I would have had to print and cut out 230+ cards! Phew thank you again for your help. Would this be a good point to throw in that I need a record of what the question was i.e. what were they told to click and what they clicked. So I can work out a percentage correct.

4. I need the coin image to be paired with the colour on the card so touching or overlapping would be great. Something like:- see attachment


Would it be possible for the pupil to click the coin and it move to a place on the screen that looked like a stack of 5p coins? That would be fantastic, would it also be possible to get the sound of a coin being added to a stack added as well, I realise I would have to find the sound.



The coin picture I will add what I have to the next post.

[HJay]

Hi AtoZ

1. Very very good point, because the pupil can’t read I think a cross would be best, will look for a picture of a friendly looking cross. Yes I prefer a button press though for the reasons you specified.

2. Another random sum will be fine.

3. Am not bothered that all the 90 pairs are seen am only bothered that the pairs are random. Thank you for working that out though, it has just brought back to me that I would have had to print and cut out 230+ cards! Phew thank you again for your help. Would this be a good point to throw in that I need a record of what the question was i.e. what were they told to click and what they clicked. So I can work out a percentage correct.

4. I need the coin image to be paired with the colour on the card so touching or overlapping would be great. Something like:- see attachment

5p coin.png (21.9 KiB) Viewed 8313 times

Would it be possible for the pupil to click the coin and it move to a place on the screen that looked like a stack of 5p coins? That would be fantastic, would it also be possible to get the sound of a coin being added to a stack added as well, I realise I would have to find the sound.



The coin picture I will add what I have to the next post.


Many thanks

HJay

[HJay]

Hi AtoZ

I could probably work out how to take the background from the coin but it would probably take me all day and probably wouldn’t be as good as you could do it. So would you mind doing it for me?

As for copyright you are not allowed to reproduce a picture of the queens head at all but the reverse of the coin is ok, also this program will never reach the public domain.

Many thanks

HJay

[AtoZ]

HJay,

I've prepared a revised flowchart (version 2.0) and removed the background from the coin, as well as making it smaller. Both items are included attached in below:

Flowchart 2-0 and Coin.zip

(68.1 KiB) Downloaded 220 times

Incidentally, this is how you can send more than one image per message. Just put whatever you want to send into a folder and then zip the folder and attach it. (Of course, the zipped folder must be under the maximum size limit imposed by the system -- sorry, but I don't remember what that is at the moment).

The main part of the flowchart is unchanged from what I sent you before. I just stuck a couple of notes near the bottom to remind us of what needs to be done. (Not everything needs to be diagrammed in a flowchart.)

A couple of questions:

Which correct/incorrect clicks do you want to track? All of them (FR cards and color cards), or just some subset of them (such as only clicks on the color cards?

Where do you see the stack of coins image appearing in relation to the color cards?

Do you have any concern that the pupils may actually expect a monetary reward at the end of the program? (If so, you may want to consider using a fake coin instead of the image of a real one.)

[HJay]

Hi AtoZ

Thanks for the info on zipping up a folder that will make it easier.

I would like to track all the questions and answers the pupil makes. Maybe this could be a sheet that was printed out at the end?

I think that I was getting a bit adventurous with the stack of coins and a sound. What will actually happen is that every time the 5p coin is earned (by choosing the correct colour) the teacher will put a real 5p coin in a cup/pot. So probably don’t need to get too complicated with the on screen stuff.

Also think the ‘oops try again’ will be enough rather than a picture as the teacher will read it to the pupil.

Thanks for asking questions has really helped me clarify what actually needs to be done and what is not necessary.

Many thanks

HJay